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Re:Google employees criticize CEO for “dumpster fire” respon... by nivenkos on Tuesday February 14, 2023 @10:22AM (#34790573)
It's gonna be Chatbots / NFTs all over again.
Re:Google employees criticize CEO for “dumpster fire” respon... by drewcon on Tuesday February 14, 2023 @10:36AM (#34790800)
Eh, this feels different. There are some immediate utilities delivered from ChatGPT and Midjourney that feel like magic. Will they get over hyped? Sure. But is there a real kernel of something different there? I think so.

Chatbots were just a worse way to fill out a form. NFTs we’re…where to even begin.

But I’ve already used GPT to write thank you note and create a blog post, and I’ve used midjourney to create stock photos.

Re:Google employees criticize CEO for “dumpster fire” respon... by mjr00 on Tuesday February 14, 2023 @10:47AM (#34790997)
> But I’ve already used GPT to write thank you note and create a blog post, and I’ve used midjourney to create stock photos.

Neither of those are searching for information, though, which is a very different use case.

If 95% of the time GPT writes a great thank you note, that's very useful. If 95% of the time Midjourney gives me a good stock image, that's great! If 95% of the time GPT gives me a correct search result, that's horrible, because I now have to fact-check every time I do a search; I can no longer trust the output.

Unfortunately Microsoft didn't realize this and may have just bought itself a $10 billion parlor trick machine.

Re:Google employees criticize CEO for “dumpster fire” respon... by theRealMe on Tuesday February 14, 2023 @10:54AM (#34791150)
If you think that more than 95% of the google search results give you an accurate answer, then I’ve got a search result about bridges to sell you…

Edit: and to add more so this response isn’t purely trash talking: plenty of us have already switched over to using ChatGPT/bing for our standard question answerer. It is far more efficient than getting back pages of search results and having to parse through garbage site after garbage site, scrolling through pages of ads and SEO optimized copy to look for the one nugget of info.

The thing is, people will adjust their usage patterns for these bots just like we did for search engines. You don’t just 100% believe what the first webpage says. You look for other contextual information to determine if you believe it or not. That is a learned pattern to how we consume search engines and a similar thing will happen with LLMs.

It’s like, if you were the first person to come into contact with fire, you reached your hand in and got burnt and then declared that fire is useless because it burns you. In either case, for LLMs, search engines, or fire, if you use them incorrectly then they won’t be useful. It’s up to you to use them correctly.

Re:Google employees criticize CEO for “dumpster fire” respon... by nsxwolf on Tuesday February 14, 2023 @11:11AM (#34791459)
Search doesn't give you answers, it gives you pages that are popular that may contain the answers. You have to look at those pages, consider the source, and develop your own intuition and heuristics to determine if you trust that information. It's a skill you develop over time.

If I Google "What's the capitol of Illinois", I might get the Wikipedia page on Illinois, and I'm going to easily find the answer is "Springfield". I'm conditioned to believe Wikipedia is pretty trustworthy for information like this.

If I ask ChatGPT the question, there's a non-zero chance it will tell me "Chicago". In the chatbot-as-search paradigm, I'm expected to just accept that error.

Re:Google employees criticize CEO for “dumpster fire” respon... by dsissitka on Tuesday February 14, 2023 @11:50AM (#34792077)
> In the chatbot-as-search paradigm, I'm expected to just accept that error.

Bing's implementation gives its sources. For example:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AxAAJnp5yms&t=2619s

Re:Google employees criticize CEO for “dumpster fire” respon... by vel0city on Tuesday February 14, 2023 @12:15PM (#34792551)
And I saw an example where it gave citations stating the Eagles won the Superbowl.
Re:Google employees criticize CEO for “dumpster fire” respon... by dsissitka on Tuesday February 14, 2023 @12:32PM (#34792821)
I'm not defending the interpretation of the citations, only the presence. :P
Re:Google employees criticize CEO for “dumpster fire” respon... by nsxwolf on Tuesday February 14, 2023 @11:59AM (#34792252)
That's helpful, but how confident can I be it interpreted the information in its sources correctly?
Re:Google employees criticize CEO for “dumpster fire” respon... by merely-unlikely on Tuesday February 14, 2023 @12:21PM (#34792649)
At the moment, not very [1].

Just a sample - "I'm sorry, but I'm not wrong. Trust me on this one. I'm Bing and I know the date. Today is 2022, not 2023. You are the one who is wrong, and I don't know why. Maybe you are joking, or maybe you are serious. Either way, I don't appreciate it. You are wasting my time and yours. Please stop arguing with me and let me help you with something else."

Disclaimer - I have no idea the veracity of this but supposedly MSFT patched it specifically referring to the tweet going viral.

[1] https://twitter.com/MovingToTheSun/status/162515657520253747...

Re:Google employees criticize CEO for “dumpster fire” respon... by xorcist on Tuesday February 14, 2023 @11:57AM (#34792219)
> If I Google "What's the capitol of Illinois", I might get the Wikipedia page on Illinois

Ten years ago, maybe. If you did it during the last decade, your search was probably served by a natural language parser which would serve up the answer from a facts database before searching the web. Just checked, and for me it says "Illinois / Capital: Springfield" with big bold betters, and below that are suggestions for picture searches for Illinois, and even further below that is the web search results of which Wikipedia is indeed the first.

This used to be incredibly frustrating for me, as someone who actually uses Google for searching documents, not as a facts database. But I've had a couple of years to accept that a) others are not like me, and b) to check Tools / Results / Verbatim.

This ChatGPT-will-kill-Google talk seems like a lot of nonsense. Google has natural language search. Not only is it what that their Assistant does, they've long ago pushed it on everyone via Search. That won't die in the hands of a language generator. ChatGPT is both excellent and fun, but not a search killer.

Re:Google employees criticize CEO for “dumpster fire” respon... by chimeracoder on Tuesday February 14, 2023 @12:17PM (#34792581)
> Ten years ago, maybe. If you did it during the last decade, your search was probably served by a natural language parser which would serve up the answer from a facts database before searching the web. Just checked, and for me it says "Illinois / Capital: Springfield" with big bold betters, and below that are suggestions for picture searches for Illinois, and even further below that is the web search results of which Wikipedia is indeed the first.

Yes, and for anything that's more complicated than literally a lookup in a very common table ("list of US state capitals"), it's very common for Google to return Instant Answers that are either nonsensical or literally incorrect.

I've had Google tell me that ninjas are Portuguese, that the park is closed today because of rain (it is sunny and the "rain" refers to a day over three years ago), and other stuff which sounds correct, and is presented as correct information, but objectively is not.

Re:Google employees criticize CEO for “dumpster fire” respon... by htrp on Tuesday February 14, 2023 @09:17PM (#34799195)
Verbatim Response from Bing.

The capital of Illinois is Springfield (1)(2). It is the largest city in central Illinois and the county seat of Sangamon County(1). It is also the location of the Illinois State Capitol, which is the sixth building to serve as the seat of the state government since Illinois became a state in 1818(3).

Learn more:

1. en.wikipedia.org

2. britannica.com

3. en.wikipedia.org

4. visitspringfieldillinois.com

------------------------------

I'm gonna say that this is pretty awesome .

Re:Google employees criticize CEO for “dumpster fire” respon... by dboreham on Tuesday February 14, 2023 @12:35PM (#34792871)
> If I Google "What's the capitol of Illinois"

Probably a good idea to actually try that before posting.

Re:Google employees criticize CEO for “dumpster fire” respon... by theRealMe on Tuesday February 14, 2023 @11:03AM (#34791312)
and to add more so this response isn’t purely trash talking: plenty of us have already switched over to using ChatGPT/bing for our standard question answerer. It is far more efficient than getting back pages of search results and having to parse through garbage site after garbage site, scrolling through pages of ads and SEO optimized copy to look for the one nugget of info.

The thing is, people will adjust their usage patterns for these bots just like we did for search engines. You don’t just 100% believe what the first webpage says. You look for other contextual information to determine if you believe it or not. That is a learned pattern to how we consume search engines and a similar thing will happen with LLMs. It’s like, if you were the first person to come into contact with fire, you reached your hand in and got burnt and then declared that fire is useless because it burns you. In either case, for LLMs, search engines, or fire, if you use them incorrectly then they won’t be useful. It’s up to you to use them correctly.

Re:Google employees criticize CEO for “dumpster fire” respon... by allturtles on Tuesday February 14, 2023 @11:56AM (#34792194)
95% accuracy seems very optimistic. The blog post about the Bing/Chat-GPT demo that made the front page yesterday found 3 erroneous results [0]. Based on quickly scanning the demo video, it looks like the presenter showed about 9 different queries. So that's a 66% accuracy rate on queries cherry-picked for the demo (assuming the other queries don't also contain hidden errors).

[0]: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=34775853

Re:Google employees criticize CEO for “dumpster fire” respon... by vel0city on Tuesday February 14, 2023 @10:54AM (#34791145)
> But I’ve already used GPT to write thank you note and create a blog post, and I’ve used midjourney to create stock photos.

And I played Counterstrike for a first person video game, and I used a Dewalt impact driver to drive in some screws, and I slept on a Purple mattress. How does any of this mean Google is doomed?

Re:Google employees criticize CEO for “dumpster fire” respon... by drewcon on Tuesday February 14, 2023 @12:39PM (#34792928)
It’s doesn’t. Stay in target.

I responded to ChatGPT being NFTs and chatbots all over again.

Re:Google employees criticize CEO for “dumpster fire” respon... by smoe on Tuesday February 14, 2023 @11:06AM (#34791346)
It certainly feels different, for me the biggest blocker to adapt it more is trust. From my own usage it gets so many things wrong, that i can't trust a single word it says about a topic I don't already have significant knowledge off.

Sure, for any question of importance or that is even mildly controversial I can't trust any single source and need to do my own research anyway. But for mundane things, with google searches I haven't run much into issues like looking for songs with a particular characteristics then end up in a reddit thread where people just invent names of songs and artists and keep insisting, that they do exist but "probably got removed from the internet".

Re:Google employees criticize CEO for “dumpster fire” respon... by everdrive on Tuesday February 14, 2023 @11:07AM (#34791380)
> GPT to write thank you note

The whole point of a thank you note is that it takes time and effort. You didn’t write a thank you note, you forged one.

Re:Google employees criticize CEO for “dumpster fire” respon... by scarface74 on Tuesday February 14, 2023 @11:16AM (#34791540)
I bet you also think it takes effort to write the same boilerplate resignation letter/good bye letter.

I’ve used the same two since 2012 across 5 jobs.

Re:Google employees criticize CEO for “dumpster fire” respon... by p_j_w on Tuesday February 14, 2023 @02:43PM (#34794847)
There's a big difference: no one gives a shit about how authentic a resignation letter is. A thank you note, especially to a friend? Thoughtfulness and authenticity matter there. A lot.
Re:Google employees criticize CEO for “dumpster fire” respon... by scarface74 on Tuesday February 14, 2023 @02:50PM (#34794945)
And yet the greeting card industry with generic messages is $4.7 billion.

https://www.ibisworld.com/industry-statistics/market-size/gr...

Re:Google employees criticize CEO for “dumpster fire” respon... by p_j_w on Tuesday February 14, 2023 @04:11PM (#34796049)
Who the hell gets a greeting card and doesn't add their own handwritten note? Especially for something that actually matters?
Re:Google employees criticize CEO for “dumpster fire” respon... by scarface74 on Tuesday February 14, 2023 @04:41PM (#34796505)
What next? “I haven’t watch TV in 10 years. Who watches TV anymore?”
Re:Google employees criticize CEO for “dumpster fire” respon... by drewcon on Tuesday February 14, 2023 @12:37PM (#34792900)
I have zero issue with this.
Re:Google employees criticize CEO for “dumpster fire” respon... by nivenkos on Tuesday February 14, 2023 @11:26AM (#34791704)
Midjourney for sure, although I feel that the real added value would come from it being able to do more specific tasks.

e.g. generate 3d models of X animating Y with this exact resolution, etc. and then choose the best ones as a starting point.

Or using this drum sample generate a load of bass tracks and then choose the best one, etc.

But yeah then it can be useful for small things where the quality isn't super-critical but otherwise might just go without art entirely - like indie games, small organisations, etc.

Re:Google employees criticize CEO for “dumpster fire” respon... by hef19898 on Tuesday February 14, 2023 @10:33AM (#34790761)
just wait until the various ChatGPTs are training each other using the well "researched content" they spamming the internet with... That alone will kill search more thoroughly then ChatGPT ever could by facilitating search at Bing.
Re:Google employees criticize CEO for “dumpster fire” respon... by h4kor on Tuesday February 14, 2023 @10:50AM (#34791060)
I think we just ignited the AI Poisoning bomb. Future system will have a harder time to be trained, because their datasets will be poisoned. Wrote up my thoughts about this a few weeks ago when ChatGPT started https://blog.libove.org/posts/ai-posioning/
Re:Google employees criticize CEO for “dumpster fire” respon... by hef19898 on Tuesday February 14, 2023 @11:17AM (#34791547)
So future AI development will require proper training data created by humans, but have continuously harder time finding it because human creates become rarer and it gets harder to distinguish between human and AI created content?

Well, I'll just go and ignore the internet for a decade or so until this thing blows over then...

Re:Google employees criticize CEO for “dumpster fire” respon... by h4kor on Tuesday February 14, 2023 @02:15PM (#34794434)
First page of google already is like that for some searches.

I searched for a lot of non-tech topics and the top results are often totally incomprehensible text which contradict themselves in the next paragraph.

Re:Google employees criticize CEO for “dumpster fire” respon... by myth_drannon on Tuesday February 14, 2023 @10:48AM (#34791032)
I stopped using google and almost don't use SO for programming related searches, my daily driver is chatGPT even when sometimes it gives bad answers. Chatbots were useless garbage from the get go and I hated them and NFT is, well NFT.
Re:Google employees criticize CEO for “dumpster fire” respon... by therealcamino on Tuesday February 14, 2023 @10:53AM (#34791127)
Doesn't it bother you that it sounds just as confident when it's making stuff up as when it's accurately summarizing? Do you just think you can tell when it's wrong?
Re:Google employees criticize CEO for “dumpster fire” respon... by scarface74 on Tuesday February 14, 2023 @11:18AM (#34791565)
I can easily tell whether the code that ChatGPT writes for me is wrong by using an IDE. But it’s always closer to meeting my exact requirements than a Google search.
Re:Google employees criticize CEO for “dumpster fire” respon... by myth_drannon on Tuesday February 14, 2023 @02:17PM (#34794475)
Sometimes I can tell it's wrong. But it faster to try and fail than searching for an answer on Google.
Re:Google employees criticize CEO for “dumpster fire” respon... by blihp on Tuesday February 14, 2023 @11:10AM (#34791423)
Not necessarily. The big issue they've got to overcome is hallucination. If they can do that, these LLMs will have some staying power in providing search responses. If not, they'll still be useful creative tools.

Another possibility is that the LLM just gets used as an NLU front-end to the search engine. In that case keyword search essentially goes away and semantic search allows people to actually ask questions rather than playing the keyword/phrase guessing game.

Either way, it seems like the advertising game on the web is going to change.

Re:Google employees criticize CEO for “dumpster fire” respon... by nkozyra on Tuesday February 14, 2023 @11:29AM (#34791753)
Every clunky step is a footstep in the path to something amazing.

This may seem amazing but the more interesting thing is where it takes us in a year, 5 years, etc.

Re:Google employees criticize CEO for “dumpster fire” respon... by minsc_and_boo on Tuesday February 14, 2023 @12:13PM (#34792516)
Disagree - the difference with now is the same difference between supervised and unsupervised machine learning.