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Re:Why the conventional wisdom on how to grow muscles is wrong by SketchySeaBeast on Monday February 06, 2023 @09:59AM (#34678217)
> A long time ago I remember reading, probably on misc.fitness.weights or something like that, that the lay crowds misunderstood “to failure”, and that it was intended to mean “until you can’t maintain perfect form”.

That seems funny to me. While someone's form breaking down leads to inefficiencies in specific muscle targeting and / or an increased chance of injury I think that approach would end up leading to people bailing when things start to get hard. I've seen a lot of people never put additional weight on the bar because they were afraid of their form breaking down when in reality measured incremental load increases are what helps makes one big and strong.

Re:Why the conventional wisdom on how to grow muscles is wrong by debacle on Monday February 06, 2023 @10:09AM (#34678383)
A good example of "to failure" is when you can't perform a lift symmetrically, or you find yourself cheating by e.g. moving your elbows, lifting your heels, etc.
Re:Why the conventional wisdom on how to grow muscles is wrong by SketchySeaBeast on Monday February 06, 2023 @10:20AM (#34678602)
So the idea is that the minute you're moving your elbows you're no longer getting any training benefit from the activity?
Re:Why the conventional wisdom on how to grow muscles is wrong by vidarh on Monday February 06, 2023 @10:41AM (#34678983)
I believe the thinking is more that you're taking an injury risk that gain you nothing compared to stopping and resting, and doing another set once recovered if you want more volume.

Because injury will set you back far more than missing out on a few reps.

Re:Why the conventional wisdom on how to grow muscles is wrong by SketchySeaBeast on Monday February 06, 2023 @10:45AM (#34679035)
Certain breakdowns of form certainly will cause injury. You don't want to round your lower back while dead lifting, but adding a bit of swing to your bicep curls will not.
Re:Why the conventional wisdom on how to grow muscles is wrong by debacle on Monday February 06, 2023 @12:09PM (#34680506)
The idea is that you are increasing your chance of injury because you've hit short term hypotrophy of the CNS/muscle.

"To failure" is a relative term. Someone who has lifting for a very long time knows their body very well. "To failure" some days might mean they don't even finish their warmup.

Re:Why the conventional wisdom on how to grow muscles is wrong by SketchySeaBeast on Monday February 06, 2023 @12:17PM (#34680631)
The reason I started this whole conversation was in response to the quote that failure is “until you can’t maintain perfect form”, which implies it's not a relative term.
Re:Why the conventional wisdom on how to grow muscles is wrong by jghn on Monday February 06, 2023 @11:15AM (#34679591)
> end up leading to people bailing when things start to get hard

Funny you should say that as I remember it coming up in the counterarguments at the time. Both in terms of neuromuscular control and also general personal motivation type angles.

Re:Why the conventional wisdom on how to grow muscles is wrong by naasking on Monday February 06, 2023 @12:35PM (#34680967)
> I think that approach would end up leading to people bailing when things start to get hard.

If you can still maintain form while it's hard, then you haven't reached the limit yet. Velocity of a lift decreases as you approach failure (you're in the "hard zone"), but you should keep going until you either can't complete rep without twisting and cheating, or if you know yourself well enough that you know you'll have to do that on the next rep. Periodically you should try going to actual failure to make sure you know what that really feels like.