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Re:The Rise of Universities’ Diversity Bureaucrats (2018) by crackercrews on Sunday February 05, 2023 @11:32PM (#34673374)
No one denies that bad things were done to African Americans. We're trying to figure out what slavery or Jim Crow has to do with whether a Black student in 2023 decides to study or not.
Re:The Rise of Universities’ Diversity Bureaucrats (2018) by SpeedilyDamage on Sunday February 05, 2023 @11:35PM (#34673386)
> We're trying to figure out what slavery or Jim Crow has to do with whether a Black student in 2023 decides to study or not.

So to be clear, you need help figuring out how centuries of systemic racism, racism that continues to this very day, might impact the community receiving that vile, disgusting hate?

You're not sure how living under constant oppressive hatred might have a negative impact? That's what you're saying?

Okay. Here's about a dozen documents, papers, and resources you can use to understand this. [0][1][2][3][4][5][6][7][8][9][10][11]

Of note, this isn't really a debated topic. In what specific ways is something we're trying to better grasp, but whether or not it's happening is not.

And if you think you know more than the combined wisdom of all of these collective institutions, I highly recommend therapy, focusing specifically on this belief of your superior understanding of the problem.

[0] https://news.temple.edu/news/2020-06-25/systemic-racism-has-...

[1] https://www.americanprogress.org/article/fighting-systemic-r...

[2] https://fas.columbia.edu/files/fas/content/ASHE%20Higher%20E...

[3] https://www.healthaffairs.org/doi/10.1377/hlthaff.2021.01394

[4] https://developingchild.harvard.edu/resources/racism-and-ecd...

[5] https://www.seattletimes.com/education-lab/to-understand-str...

[6] https://news.stanford.edu/2022/02/01/examining-systemic-raci...

[7] https://scholarworks.wmich.edu/cgi/viewcontent.cgi?article=1...

[8] https://www.whitehouse.gov/briefing-room/statements-releases...

[9] https://psychcentral.com/health/prospective-teachers-more-li...

[10] https://www.apa.org/monitor/2016/11/cover-inequality-school

[11] https://www.oah.org/tah/issues/2017/february/the-troubled-hi...

Re:The Rise of Universities’ Diversity Bureaucrats (2018) by crackercrews on Sunday February 05, 2023 @11:46PM (#34673453)
My people have been oppressed for centuries. Most people come from people that have been oppressed for centuries. It doesn't factor into how much I study.

You should check out John McWhorter, who has a very different take on what it is to grow up Black these days. I have no idea whether you're Black, or how old you are. But the characterization you give is out of step with what a lot of people perceive. Folks like John find these sort of descriptions borderline offensive. Also demoralizing to Black kids, who shouldn't be told that the world is more awful than it actually is.

Re:The Rise of Universities’ Diversity Bureaucrats (2018) by SpeedilyDamage on Sunday February 05, 2023 @11:49PM (#34673468)
Observing how hard work won't help you succeed academically due to discrimination via racism absolutely does factor into how much you study. How can't you see that?
Re:The Rise of Universities’ Diversity Bureaucrats (2018) by crackercrews on Monday February 06, 2023 @12:12AM (#34673623)
You forgot to prove your premise.
Re:The Rise of Universities’ Diversity Bureaucrats (2018) by SpeedilyDamage on Monday February 06, 2023 @12:13AM (#34673632)
I did not.
Re:The Rise of Universities’ Diversity Bureaucrats (2018) by Manuel_D on Monday February 06, 2023 @12:47AM (#34673842)
Except hard work will help you succeed academically if you're black. In fact, it'll help you a lot more than if you're Asian or white. A Black applicant in the top 9th decile academically has over 50% chance of being admitted to Harvard, as compared to under 10% for an Asian student with the same academic achievement: https://www.economist.com/united-states/2018/06/23/a-lawsuit...

If what you are saying were true we should be seeing Asians spending the least time studying and Black students studying hard. But your hypothesis is not only untrue, it's the opposite of what we actually observe.

Re:The Rise of Universities’ Diversity Bureaucrats (2018) by SpeedilyDamage on Monday February 06, 2023 @12:53AM (#34673876)
Yeah but getting to that level despite all of the shit holding black people (and other minority groups) back is insanely hard. So yeah, once you're there it probably gets a bit easier, but getting there is nearly impossible.

What we do see are the systemic effects of an entire society normalizing a whole host of racist behaviors, including trying to play the struggle Olympics by comparing one racial group (who have a whole different set of issues) to another.

Re:The Rise of Universities’ Diversity Bureaucrats (2018) by Manuel_D on Monday February 06, 2023 @01:12AM (#34673984)
Comparing racial groups' admissions prospects isn't racist. It's just inconvenient to your narrative that Black students aren't rewarded by academic success because it so starkly demonstrates that it's not only untrue, but the opposite of true. A Black student needs to be squarely in the middle of the pack to have the same admissions chances as an Asian student in the top 10%. I'm baffled as to how you can convince yourself that Black students aren't rewarded for academic success - it's greater reward for the same level of academic success.

Your who premise that Black students are not rewarded for academic success - which other commenters asked you to substantiate and you refused [1] - is untrue, and you've resorted to accusations of racism instead of trying to argue your point.

1. https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=34673623

Re:The Rise of Universities’ Diversity Bureaucrats (2018) by SpeedilyDamage on Monday February 06, 2023 @01:17AM (#34674001)
I didn't say it was racism, I said it was bad logic. If there is an issue giving black people opportunities, it makes no sense to only measure the black people who already find their way into success despite the hurdles.

That literally does not make sense logically.

And I didn't refuse to do shit, I literally gave a dozen sources that all support my claim that black people have a whole host of things working against them when it comes to performing well academically. I disagreed that I haven't "proven" what I claimed when I very clearly and undeniably did exactly that.

Re:The Rise of Universities’ Diversity Bureaucrats (2018) by goatlover on Monday February 06, 2023 @01:35AM (#34674086)
What evidence do you have that hard work won't help you succeed academically today? Plenty of minority students have succeeded in academics through hard work. And how is that Asians managed to avoid this problem as a group? They didn't face any discriminitation?
Re:The Rise of Universities’ Diversity Bureaucrats (2018) by SpeedilyDamage on Monday February 06, 2023 @01:56AM (#34674192)
https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=34673386

See this list for a very small start into understanding why the same amount of "hard work" won't help a black person succeed academically in America.

Re:The Rise of Universities’ Diversity Bureaucrats (2018) by Manuel_D on Monday February 06, 2023 @02:08AM (#34674269)
I wouldn't expect any substantial answers from this commenter. I've checked out the dozen or so linked they've posted and it's mostly a smattering of unrelated statistics. For instance, Black Americans have 20% higher rates of heart disease. This is relevant to academics, how exactly? Are students dying of heart attacks in the middle of taking the SAT? The article just gives some effusive language.

He'll just keep referring you to these links and call you racist if you point out that other ethnic groups have succeeded.

Re:The Rise of Universities’ Diversity Bureaucrats (2018) by SpeedilyDamage on Monday February 06, 2023 @02:15AM (#34674305)
> For instance, Black Americans have 20% higher rates of heart disease. This is relevant to academics, how exactly?

I learned algebra from my grandfather, who was still alive because he didn't die of heart disease.

> He'll just keep referring you to these links and call you racist if you point out that other ethnic groups have succeeded.

Because it's covered extensively in those links why talking about the outcomes of the select few black people who make it to the top tiers of academia is not a relevant or meaningful way of approaching the problem. I can lead you to water, but I can't make you drink it.

But overall, what a shitty, disingenuous comment that reveals your terrible faith engagement on this topic. I didn't once call anyone here a racist person.

Honestly, thank you for posting this and revealing to the other folks here that you have no interest in abiding by the HN guidelines. At this point there's not really much more to do than flag your comments and stop engaging with your toxicity.

Re:The Rise of Universities’ Diversity Bureaucrats (2018) by Manuel_D on Monday February 06, 2023 @02:25AM (#34674385)
And my grandparents either didn't live within 1,000 miles of me or died before the 3rd grade. Yet I learned algebra all the same.

Your links don't actually substantiate the claim that you're making. That's why people keep asking you to substantiate the claims that you're making about lower reward for the same level of academic success, and why your continuous referral back to these links is pointless. And now you're resorting to flagging comments because you can't refute them.

If my comments are so toxic, the correct course of action as per the HN guidelines is to not respond - which you have evidently not done.

> I didn't once call anyone here a racist person.

Yes, you did, here [1]

> What we do see are the systemic effects of an entire society normalizing a whole host of racist behaviors, including trying to play the struggle Olympics by comparing one racial group (who have a whole different set of issues) to another.

You wrote this in response to my comparison of Asian and Black admission rates, in response to your claim that Black people are not rewarded for academic success. In your response explicitly called the comparison of racial groups racist. Sure, you didn't call me racist. You just called what I did in the previous comment racist - as though I can't connect the dots.

1. https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=34673876

Re:The Rise of Universities’ Diversity Bureaucrats (2018) by SpeedilyDamage on Monday February 06, 2023 @02:30AM (#34674412)
Wait, do you not know the difference between a racist behavior and a racist person?

Yikes...

Re:The Rise of Universities’ Diversity Bureaucrats (2018) by Manuel_D on Monday February 06, 2023 @02:35AM (#34674445)
When you call something racist that someone just did, you're calling that person racist. This is one of the weakest dodges I've seen.
Re:The Rise of Universities’ Diversity Bureaucrats (2018) by SpeedilyDamage on Monday February 06, 2023 @02:36AM (#34674449)
Sorry but no, that's not true at all. Non-racist people can say and do very racist things. You can shift from acting in racist ways to not second-to-second, it's kind of the whole problem.

The only weak dodge here is your continued insistence I haven't supported my claim when in fact I have well beyond your ability to refute it; so you cling onto this clearly false claim that I haven't as some way of sidestepping your failure to directly address what I've claimed.

Re:The Rise of Universities’ Diversity Bureaucrats (2018) by Manuel_D on Monday February 06, 2023 @02:37AM (#34674460)
> Non-racist people can be very racist.

Shroedinger's racism: the person is simultaneously racist and non-racist at the same time.

You edited your comment after my response, that's what it read before you changed it to "...say and do very racist things."

Re:The Rise of Universities’ Diversity Bureaucrats (2018) by SpeedilyDamage on Monday February 06, 2023 @02:40AM (#34674469)
Not what it says, do you struggle to quote people like this often?
Re:The Rise of Universities’ Diversity Bureaucrats (2018) by benj111 on Monday February 06, 2023 @04:13AM (#34675123)
The whole point of this thread is that black kids don't try to study because of past racism.

You now want to tell black kids that everything's shit so there's no point trying, then point to the inevitable result of that lack of effort as racism? Are you not the racist?

Re:The Rise of Universities’ Diversity Bureaucrats (2018) by SpeedilyDamage on Monday February 06, 2023 @04:26AM (#34675248)
...who is telling black kids that everything is shit or that there's no point in trying?
Re:The Rise of Universities’ Diversity Bureaucrats (2018) by benj111 on Monday February 06, 2023 @05:48AM (#34675739)
Society? You tell me. They aren't getting the grades because they aren't studying. They aren't studying because.....? You atleast appear to support this 'truth' telling, regardless of the self fulfilling outcome.
Re:The Rise of Universities’ Diversity Bureaucrats (2018) by SpeedilyDamage on Monday February 06, 2023 @11:18AM (#34679631)
They aren't studying because it's not worth the effort, due to the racism.
Re:The Rise of Universities’ Diversity Bureaucrats (2018) by desuforever on Monday February 06, 2023 @03:06AM (#34674614)
i love how white americans fight against eachother. better for my family lol
Re:The Rise of Universities’ Diversity Bureaucrats (2018) by SpeedilyDamage on Monday February 06, 2023 @03:09AM (#34674637)
Huh?
Re:The Rise of Universities’ Diversity Bureaucrats (2018) by lazyeye on Monday February 06, 2023 @03:56AM (#34675001)
Jon Haidt talks about the overwhelming left-wing bias in our universities

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Gatn5ameRr8

Re:The Rise of Universities’ Diversity Bureaucrats (2018) by SpeedilyDamage on Monday February 06, 2023 @04:06AM (#34675076)
There's a strong left-leaning bias in the general American population as well, so I'm not surprised (45% vs 40%).[0]

[0] https://www.pewresearch.org/politics/2021/11/09/beyond-red-v...

Re:The Rise of Universities’ Diversity Bureaucrats (2018) by lazyeye on Monday February 06, 2023 @06:18AM (#34675936)
Lol..well thats regularly disproven.