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Re:US police use digital data to prosecute abortions by 29athrowaway on Friday January 27, 2023 @11:23PM (#34555106)
Let's see:

- There is an organism that is alive.

- The organism belongs to the human species.

- The organism is separate from the parents (different DNA).

- It's an intervention that results in loss of life.

- It's premeditated (regardless of justification).

Those are all irrefutable facts. The gestation phase doesn't change the facts above.

What do we call a premeditated intervention that results in the loss of life of an alive member of the human species?

Use any word you want. The semantics are the same.

Re:US police use digital data to prosecute abortions by lupire on Friday January 27, 2023 @11:31PM (#34555150)
You don't appear to know what a womb is.
Re:US police use digital data to prosecute abortions by 29athrowaway on Friday January 27, 2023 @11:39PM (#34555203)
1) Take a DNA sample from a human in gestation, regardless of gestation phase. Compare it with the parents DNA. The DNA will belong to the human species, and will be different to that of the parents.

2) Measure the vital signs of the organism. You will confirm that it is alive.

3) Try the same with other mammals.

Please go ahead and try to falsify this. Have fun.

Re:US police use digital data to prosecute abortions by timbit42 on Saturday January 28, 2023 @05:44PM (#34562807)
I get a kick out of Evangelicals trying to determine when life begins. The entire process is life. If any part of procreation wasn't life, then it would fail.

For an atheist, it's all life so ending the process at any point is technically death. Every sperm is sacred, so to speak.

For a Jew or Christian though, the Bible doesn't consider the unborn to be human until they are birthed. Instead they are considered potentially human. Since it is not human, killing it isn't considered murder.

Evangelicals wrongly believe their Bible considers the unborn to be human, thus their anti-abortion stance. If you look back to the 1960's, Evangelicals were not anti-abortion. That changed in the 1970's and here we are today.

Re:US police use digital data to prosecute abortions by 29athrowaway on Saturday January 28, 2023 @07:15PM (#34563433)
What marks the beginning of the individual organism is the fertilization of the egg, forming the zygote. Before that you have separate gametes.
Re:US police use digital data to prosecute abortions by josephcsible on Saturday January 28, 2023 @07:21PM (#34563476)
> the Bible doesn't consider the unborn to be human until they are birthed.

This isn't true.

Re:US police use digital data to prosecute abortions by anigbrowl on Sunday January 29, 2023 @08:05PM (#34574634)
Premise rejected. DNA is not the yardstick here. Human DNA tells you nothing about the level of development or self-sustainability. Your fingernail clippings contain your DNA; by your logic, clipping your fingernails is a form of suicide.

A fetus in the early stages of development is not alive in the regular sense because it is incapable of independent survival and lacks the requisite organs to sustain itself, experience pain etc.

Re:US police use digital data to prosecute abortions by 29athrowaway on Monday January 30, 2023 @10:17PM (#34590426)
Many neonates are not self-sustainable after birth. Some will never become self-sustainable and will depend on machines and medications to survive for the rest of their life.

Most elderly people including yourself some years from now will not be "self-sustainable". You will need help to move around, you will need medications to survive and all sorts of help.

There is a congenital disorder which makes you insensitive to pain. Does that make you not human?

It is a rather dumb argument.

Re:US police use digital data to prosecute abortions by nullish_signal on Friday January 27, 2023 @11:32PM (#34555155)
I just wish Women and Men would KEEP THEIR PANTS ON if they can't afford to have kids.

Parents and Pharmaceuticals, that ought to be Raising Children, instead asking themselves daily all over the world, "How do we rid ourselves of our Offspring..."

Horrifying. Choose Chastity instead.

Re:US police use digital data to prosecute abortions by 29athrowaway on Friday January 27, 2023 @11:47PM (#34555243)
That's unrelated to what I said and I won't take your bait.
Re:US police use digital data to prosecute abortions by nullish_signal on Saturday January 28, 2023 @02:26AM (#34555903)
It's "bait" to wish that the discussion of Abortion were non-existent because I wish Chastity were more widespread?

I didn't intend it in an ironic way, I am entirely serious.

But Genes demand Reproduction, so this wish is perhaps somewhat Futile.

Re:US police use digital data to prosecute abortions by timbit42 on Saturday January 28, 2023 @05:46PM (#34562821)
My country is trying to keep the population growing via payments to parents and immigration. Parents get enough money here to make having a child a non-issue financially. Even if the parent is on welfare, they can afford to have a child.
Re:US police use digital data to prosecute abortions by woodruffw on Friday January 27, 2023 @11:53PM (#34555275)
I’m not particularly interested in debating this. This goes to my point about rhetoricity.
Re:US police use digital data to prosecute abortions by jancsika on Friday January 27, 2023 @11:57PM (#34555294)
> Use any word you want. The semantics are the same.

They aren't.

The word murder commonly describes an unjustified killing.

That makes it incompatible with your specification as written.

So you'd have to use a different word here.

Re:US police use digital data to prosecute abortions by 29athrowaway on Saturday January 28, 2023 @01:40AM (#34555743)
Let's agree on some definitions:

1) intervention + loss of life = killing

2) killing + of a human + by a human = homicide

3) homicide + premeditation + malice = murder

In the abortion case:

- an intervention takes place resulting in loss of life = an organism is killed (1)

- the organism being killed is human. the intervention is done by a human = a homicide (2)

Now, is it murder (i.e.: is it "wrong")? it's as homicide (human killed by human) and it's premeditated. But is there malice?

There are situations where loss of life is inevitable unless an intervention takes place, and there are other scenarios. This can be used to establish whether the abortion (i.e.: homicide with premeditation) is justified or not. But it's still technically a homicide with premeditation, regardless of whether it is justified or rightful.

Re:US police use digital data to prosecute abortions by thwoawayyowser on Saturday January 28, 2023 @12:31PM (#34559538)
Woh. I didn't even know the anti-abortion people have an argument. I thought you people just wave signs and shout at the rest of us.

I appreciate the way you lay out your argument but I refuse to agree because if you're right the consequences would be too much to grapple with.

Re:US police use digital data to prosecute abortions by 29athrowaway on Saturday January 28, 2023 @01:38PM (#34560186)
So in your opinion, killing a 20 weeks Down syndrome in gestation, only because they have Down syndrome is a properly justified? Because that is the unspoken reality in 2023.

Some abortions are justified, others aren't. A compromise was done that lets unjustified abortions take place, enabling a loophole for eugenics.

If we embark in this eugenics journey, where does it stop? Should everyone with a GPA of less than 4.0 be killed? Should everyone not capable of running a marathon be killed? Should everyone with less than 1000 followers on TikTok be killed? Should everyone not able to name at least 100 Pokemons be killed?

Eugenics is wrong and we should be able to say it.

Re:US police use digital data to prosecute abortions by timbit42 on Saturday January 28, 2023 @05:39PM (#34562768)
Anyone who is Jewish or Christian should know that the Bible doesn't consider the unborn to be human until it exits the mother at birth, but until then it is potentially human. This means killing the unborn is not murder and is not immoral in itself. Strangely, Evangelicals think killing the unborn is murder. In my opinion, they like to interpret their scriptures in a way that matches their pre-conceived ideas.

For anyone who is not religious, the entire process of procreation through to birth is life. There is no point at which life begins because every part of the process is life. If any part of the process wasn't life, it wouldn't work. Everything the parent said is correct.

Re:US police use digital data to prosecute abortions by 29athrowaway on Saturday January 28, 2023 @05:56PM (#34562890)
The Jewish bible and the "Christian" (Roman Catholic) bible differ.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/First_Council_of_Nicaea