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Re:An AI robot lawyer was set to argue in court. Real lawyer... by intrasight on Thursday January 26, 2023 @02:45PM (#34537673)
From what I've read recently, the legal profession is the one most at risk of adverse financial effects from AI. Not the court appearances nor the specialized work. But the run-of-the-mill boilerplate legal writing that is the bread and butter profit center of most first. You bet they are threatened and will push back.

Now the question is this. If an AI is doing something illegal like practicing law, how does one sanction an AI?

Re:An AI robot lawyer was set to argue in court. Real lawyer... by Calavar on Thursday January 26, 2023 @03:32PM (#34538358)
> Now the question is this. If an AI is doing something illegal like practicing law, how does one sanction an AI?

As far as I'm aware, no LLM has reached sentience and started taking on projects of its own volition. So it's easy - you sanction whoever ran the software for an illegal purpose or whoever marketed and sold the software for an illegal purpose.

Re:An AI robot lawyer was set to argue in court. Real lawyer... by intrasight on Thursday January 26, 2023 @04:12PM (#34538919)
Lots of legal software is marketed and sold.
Re:An AI robot lawyer was set to argue in court. Real lawyer... by OkayPhysicist on Thursday January 26, 2023 @04:34PM (#34539161)
And legal software is very, very careful to avoid constituting legal advice, as opposed to merely legal information.
Re:An AI robot lawyer was set to argue in court. Real lawyer... by chii on Thursday January 26, 2023 @10:02PM (#34541961)
you cannot sanction the seller of a software, any more than you can sanction the seller of the gun for a murderer.
Re:An AI robot lawyer was set to argue in court. Real lawyer... by Redoubts on Sunday January 29, 2023 @11:26AM (#34569590)
People have been trying exactly this tho?

https://apnews.com/article/sandy-hook-school-shooting-reming...

https://www.gov.ca.gov/2022/07/12/new-california-law-holds-g...

The second link feeling much closer to direct government action.

Re:An AI robot lawyer was set to argue in court. Real lawyer... by danShumway on Thursday January 26, 2023 @03:02PM (#34537903)
Automating boilerplate seems like a great use for AI if you can then have someone go over the writing and check that it's accurate.

I'd prefer that the boilerplate actually be reduced instead, but... I don't have any issue with someone using AI to target tasks that are essentially copy-paste operations anyway. I think this was kind of different.

> If an AI is doing something illegal like practicing law, how does one sanction an AI?

IANAL, but AIs don't have legal personhood, so it would be kind of like trying to sanction a hammer. I don't think that the AI was being threatened with legal action over this stunt, DoNotPay was being threatened.

In an instance where an AI just exists and is Open Source and there is no party at fault beyond the person who decides to download and use it, then as long as that person isn't violating court procedure there's probably no one to sanction? It's likely a bad move, but :shrug:.

But this comes into play with stuff like self-driving as well. The law doesn't think of AI as something that's special. If your AI drives you into the side of the wall, it's the same situation as if your back-up camera didn't beep and you backed into another car. Either the manufacturer is at fault because the tool failed, or you're at fault and you didn't have a reasonable expectation that the tool wouldn't fail or you used it improperly. Or maybe nobody's at fault because everyone (both you and the manufacturer) acted reasonably. In all of those cases, the AI doesn't have any more legal rights or masking of liability than your break pads do, it's not treated as a unique entity -- and using an AI doesn't change a manufacturer's liability around advertising.

That gets slightly more complicated with copyright law surrounding AIs, but even there, it's not that AIs are special entities that have their own legal status that can't own copyright, it's that (currently, we'll see if that precedent holds in the future) US courts rule that using an AI is not a sufficiently creative act to generate copyright protections.

Re:An AI robot lawyer was set to argue in court. Real lawyer... by intrasight on Thursday January 26, 2023 @04:08PM (#34538870)
This is different from self-driving or software dev apps.

Law is different because the bar has a legally enforced monopoly on doing legal work.

DoNotPay was being threatened. But they weren't practicing law - they were just providing legal tools.

My point is that were in uncharted legal territory. Perhaps ask the AI what it thinks ;)

Re:An AI robot lawyer was set to argue in court. Real lawyer... by OkayPhysicist on Thursday January 26, 2023 @04:38PM (#34539194)
Actually, by telling a client what specific arguments to make in court, they were giving big-L Legal Advice, and thus literally practicing law.
Re:An AI robot lawyer was set to argue in court. Real lawyer... by danShumway on Thursday January 26, 2023 @11:18PM (#34542416)
> Law is different because the bar has a legally enforced monopoly on doing legal work.

I don't see how this would decrease DoNotPay's liability.

Regardless of how you feel about the bar, I don't think that changes anything about who they would sanction or why. Having a legal monopoly means they're even less likely to go along with a "the AI did it, not me" explanation than a normal market would be.

I mean, no matter what, they're not sanctioning the AI. They don't recognize the AI as a person, they recognize it as a tool that a person/organization is using to perform an action.

Re:An AI robot lawyer was set to argue in court. Real lawyer... by squokko on Thursday January 26, 2023 @05:15PM (#34539648)
The legal profession is at the least risk of adverse financial effects from anything, because the people who make the laws are largely lawyers, and will shape the law to their advantage.
Re:An AI robot lawyer was set to argue in court. Real lawyer... by HillRat on Thursday January 26, 2023 @05:31PM (#34539825)
> An AI is not a person, and therefore can't be sanctioned for practicing law - my take anyway.

"Personhood" in a legal sense doesn't necessarily mean a natural person. In this case, the company behind it is a person and is practicing law (so no pro se litigant using the company to generate legal arguments). In addition, if you want something entered into court, you need a (natural person) lawyer to do it, who has a binding ethical duty to supervise the work of his or her subordinates. Blindly dumping AI-generated work product into open court is about as clear-cut an ethical violation as you can find.

To your larger point, law firms would love to automate a bunch of paralegal and associate-level work; I've been involved in some earlier efforts to do things like automated deposition analysis, and there's plenty of precedent in the way the legal profession jumped on shepardizing tools to rapidly cite cases. Increased productivity isn't going to be reflected by partners earning any less, after all.

Re:An AI robot lawyer was set to argue in court. Real lawyer... by dragonwriter on Thursday January 26, 2023 @05:56PM (#34540073)
> Now the question is this. If an AI is doing something illegal like practicing law, how does one sanction an AI?

Its not and you don’t.

When a legal person (either a natural person or corporation) is doing something illegal like unauthorized practice of law, you sanction that person. The fact that they use an AI as a key tool in their unauthorized law practice is not particularly significant, legally.

Re:An AI robot lawyer was set to argue in court. Real lawyer... by ArnoVW on Thursday January 26, 2023 @06:57PM (#34540607)
The AI is a tool, belonging to a person, thar is using that tool to sell advice.
Re:An AI robot lawyer was set to argue in court. Real lawyer... by intrasight on Friday January 27, 2023 @12:25AM (#34542819)
That's a different situation that what I am discussing - where the defendant is directly using AI.