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Re:IBM to cut about 3,900 workers while still hiring in ‘hig... by ASalazarMX on Thursday January 26, 2023 @12:11PM (#34534693)
Banks love IBM mainframes/midranges. They might not be blistering fast, but they're a joy to work with if you have the budget.
Re:IBM to cut about 3,900 workers while still hiring in ‘hig... by sgt on Thursday January 26, 2023 @01:23PM (#34536171)
Joy to work with... for whom?
Re:IBM to cut about 3,900 workers while still hiring in ‘hig... by danrocks on Thursday January 26, 2023 @02:54PM (#34537787)
IBM, presumably? /s
Re:IBM to cut about 3,900 workers while still hiring in ‘hig... by YetAnotherNick on Thursday January 26, 2023 @01:27PM (#34536270)
Can you expand on why they are joy to work with?
Re:IBM to cut about 3,900 workers while still hiring in ‘hig... by hcarvalhoalves on Thursday January 26, 2023 @01:46PM (#34536613)
You don’t need to wrestle AWS, Docker, Kubernetes, Terraform, Spark, Aurora, etc… to run a batch job. The kinds of tasks that take integrating multiple different providers and software packages to do in cloud architecture are OS-level features on mainframe. It’s less flexible and more expensive, but an order less accidental complexity.
Re:IBM to cut about 3,900 workers while still hiring in ‘hig... by opportune on Thursday January 26, 2023 @02:13PM (#34537107)
How is that different from a bare metal Linux server?
Re:IBM to cut about 3,900 workers while still hiring in ‘hig... by survirtual on Thursday January 26, 2023 @02:31PM (#34537442)
It isn’t. It is significantly worse.

IBM is a dinosaur company that exists because of embedded connections in government, banking, and defense. They charge 100x the going rate for ancient tech that’s insecure and an absolute nightmare to develop for.

The sooner everyone drops anything associated with IBM or Oracle, the better for everyone. Absolute cancers.

Re:IBM to cut about 3,900 workers while still hiring in ‘hig... by hnfong on Thursday January 26, 2023 @02:54PM (#34537789)
> The sooner everyone drops anything associated with IBM or Oracle, the better for everyone. Absolute cancers.

If the only alternative is "AWS, Docker, Kubernetes, Terraform, Spark, Aurora, etc…" I might have to think long and hard about it...

Re:IBM to cut about 3,900 workers while still hiring in ‘hig... by LaSombra on Thursday January 26, 2023 @11:21PM (#34542442)
You can run Kubernetes on mainframes as well as Linux, so developing for mainframes has become easier these last 20 or so years.
Re:IBM to cut about 3,900 workers while still hiring in ‘hig... by pjmlp on Friday January 27, 2023 @01:41AM (#34543304)
Bad news for you, the mainframe business in 2022 actually increased sales, contrary to the regular PC market.
Re:IBM to cut about 3,900 workers while still hiring in ‘hig... by survirtual on Friday January 27, 2023 @06:23AM (#34544876)
Bad news for everyone
Re:IBM to cut about 3,900 workers while still hiring in ‘hig... by andromeduck on Thursday January 26, 2023 @03:39PM (#34538475)
A free orders of magnitude in performance?
Re:IBM to cut about 3,900 workers while still hiring in ‘hig... by ASalazarMX on Thursday January 26, 2023 @02:27PM (#34537374)
Tried to edit my original comment because two people asked the same, but it didn't update, so I'll resume it here:

- No devops, you have real sysadmins whose priority is security and system administration, not development.

- Not relearning to invent the wheel every six months. The technology changes incrementally. If you get out of the field for a few years, read the "what's new" sections of the new manuals to catch up.

- Documentation. IBM docs are great, remind me of NASA docs. They have everything you need, you can go days without googling a problem.

- Backwards compatibility. Decades old sources can be compiled, decades old binaries can be run. Architecture changes are handled transparently.

- Simplicity. The interfaces might seem primitive compared to PC OSs, but there's also less complexity, and less attack surface.

- Uptime. Almost everything, including CPUs, is hot-swappable. This doesn't add to the joy, but it's remarkable.

Re:IBM to cut about 3,900 workers while still hiring in ‘hig... by MisterPea on Thursday January 26, 2023 @03:25PM (#34538253)
Very interesting. Having worked at AWS in the past, the company had very similar features/principles to what you have mentioned except for simplicity.

I think it's things like these which makes me thing AWS will remain the top cloud provider for the next few decades.

Re:IBM to cut about 3,900 workers while still hiring in ‘hig... by xylophile on Thursday January 26, 2023 @11:17PM (#34542407)
You're spot on about simplicity, and it's the reason AWS may not remain the top cloud provider for much longer. There is no effort to implement any sort of consistency across their famed two-pizza teams -- that wouldn't be "Day one". So each service has its own IAM quirks, making basic security at scale a nightmare, and in some cases impossible.

Azure policies are comparatively a breeze, making it the smart and increasingly obvious choice for any regulated (read: large) corporation.

Re:IBM to cut about 3,900 workers while still hiring in ‘hig... by skissane on Thursday January 26, 2023 @07:59PM (#34541154)
I find them really interesting because they are a whole other world, the "road not taken". They are very different from Unix/POSIX/Linux/*BSD/macOS/etc, even moreso than Windows is. Windows is not a Unix, but it has borrowed a lot of ideas from Unix–and is arguably growing more Unix-like as time goes by, borrowing more and more ideas from Unix-land–Windows is a lot closer to Unix than most mainframe operating systems are–even MS-DOS is a lot closer to Unix than most mainframe operating systems (indeed, if you read the source code and design docs for MS-DOS 2, they repeatedly mention the influence upon it of Microsoft's Unix, Xenix.)

Consider some ideas which exist in z/OS but not in Unix or Windows:

- record-oriented file system: the filesystem is aware of the record-boundaries of files, whether they contain fixed length or variable length records, etc – and enforces them

- indexed files: key-value type files are built in to the filesystem, not some add-on library

- the catalog: a database mapping file paths (dataset names) to the volumes they are stored on: so you can move a file to another disk volume (or even to tape) without changing its filesystem path. You can kind of approximate this using mount points, symbolic links, etc – but it is a lot messier

- partitioned data sets (PDS/PDSE): like ZIP/TAR files, but again, built-in to the filesystem

- block-oriented terminals: you send/receive data to terminals as a screenful at a time, not a character at a time

- DDnames: your program inherits (the moral equivalent of) file descriptors, but instead of just having numbers, they have names (instead of fd 0, you have a DD called "SYSIN")

You can argue about whether the above features are sensible – the designers of Unix were well-aware of them, but decided they were examples of unnecessary complexity – but sensible or not, they are interesting.

Re:IBM to cut about 3,900 workers while still hiring in ‘hig... by pjmlp on Friday January 27, 2023 @01:39AM (#34543295)
And language environments, which keep oldie programms running on modern hardware without recompilation.

Something that neither UNIX nor Windows have fully embraced to the extent of mainframes/micros.

All the deployments from Java and .NET workloads end up with some kind of compromise to classical UNIX/Windows development.

Re:IBM to cut about 3,900 workers while still hiring in ‘hig... by skissane on Friday January 27, 2023 @05:26AM (#34544542)
> And language environments, which keep oldie programms running on modern hardware without recompilation.

I think we've had this discussion before. The Language Environment (LE) on z/OS doesn't do that. The Integrated Language Environment (ILE) on OS/400 [0] does do that. But while one part of ILE (the CEE runtime and its API) is common code between z/OS and OS/400 (and also VM, VSE, TPF and OS/2) – that bit doesn't do any of the "keep oldie programs running by recompilation" stuff. Whereas, the parts of ILE which does do that (the OMI to NMI translator, and the NMI to POWER translator), is 100% OS/400 specific, and has no equivalent on any other IBM platform (z/OS included). You seem to be getting led astray by the fact that "Language Environment" means a lot more in OS/400 than it does in MVS – it is a mistake to assume that just because the later uses the same phrase, that it uses it to mean anywhere near the same thing. LE on MVS is just one (relatively small) part of the capabilities provided by ILE on OS/400.

(Also, this "platform independence" doesn't really have anything to do with anything "Language Environment", since it pre-exists ILE entirely – EPM and OPM before it had the same ability. You are associating "Language Environment" with something which was never actually the selling point of ILE, since it was something OPM and EPM already could do, at least in principle. The real selling point of ILE is that it could support recursive/stack-based HLLs such as C and Pascal more efficiently than EPM, and support mixing code from multiple languages much more easily than OPM and EPM allowed. Plus, a lot of its implementation was shared with z/OS and AIX, which was a bonus for IBM – not just the CEE runtime, but also the compiler backend–the later is not considered part of LE on z/OS, rather part of the compiler products)

[0] Yes, IBM i, I know – but I hate that name, it is confusing. IBM should have just stuck with OS/400, it was far more memorable and distinctive.

Re:IBM to cut about 3,900 workers while still hiring in ‘hig... by jimbo9991 on Friday January 27, 2023 @08:20PM (#34554091)
To expand on what you said for those curious about what Language Environment actually is on z/OS:

Language Environment on z/OS is basically a shared standard library and runtime used (sometimes optional) by most of the different high level languages.

It defines it's own register usage conventions and calling convention, and so you must be aware when writing and/or compiling programs whether you want it to be LE compliant or not. The calling convention in LE is very different from the convention used by OS level programs (typically written in Assembler or C).

Most of the time if you are writing a (compiled) application program for z/OS it's best to make it LE compliant. However the incompatibility with base z/OS calling conventions is frustrating because systems programmers mostly avoid writing LE compliant programs due to it being heavy and not working in some of the environments closer to the metal.

So while LE on z/OS is pretty extensive and gives you a common API to program against in different languages, it's also caused a bit of an ABI split and made it harder to share tools between systems and application programmers, which is unfortunate.

Like the above post said, it doesn't really have much to do with the z/OS compatibility story. If anything, the older the program the more likely it is to not work under LE due to LE breaking compatibility with the original calling convention.

z/OS compatibility is kind of oversold to be perfectly honest. Yes, it is likely you can continue to run your very old programs due to 24 and 31bit addressing still being an option, but you better be pretty damn careful to backup that executable if your thinking of ever trying to recompile.

Re:IBM to cut about 3,900 workers while still hiring in ‘hig... by ASalazarMX on Friday January 27, 2023 @12:55PM (#34549347)
> I find them really interesting because they are a whole other world, the "road not taken".

This is so interesting, having witnessed the commoditization of PCs, the Cloud, and now virtual desktops on the cloud. We're basically reinventing the multiuser mainframe after discovering it actually had good proposals.

The problem is, it's being reinvented with a monstrous degree of complexity and fragility. It's retaking the road not taken, but carrying the other road with as well.