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Re:Why the Google layoffs are about personal ambition and po... by komali2 on Tuesday January 24, 2023 @08:54PM (#34513373)
But what labor did they contribute? Follow the chain and at most what they did was buy someone else's labor and attach it to the Google brand (through having more cash for hiring), there's other ways to do that though, like loans, or structuring as a co-op so all employees are simply the only shareholders.
Re:Why the Google layoffs are about personal ambition and po... by csomar on Tuesday January 24, 2023 @09:58PM (#34513831)
There is a dangerous path in this rationalization that will lead you to Marxism. The theory is cute and some people in Europe thought it would work. It didn't and that's how we ended up with capitalism. Humans are capitalist traders by instinct. Marxism makes logical sense, however.
Re:Why the Google layoffs are about personal ambition and po... by ClumsyPilot on Tuesday January 24, 2023 @10:06PM (#34513891)
> Humans are capitalist traders by instinct.

Humans are Feudal creatures by instict - thats why feudalism lasted thousands of yeats.

Democracy and freedom are fragile and unnatural, they must be cherished.

> There is a dangerous path in this rationalization that will lead you to Marxism.

This is the brain disease of American politics, anyone pointing out injustice of any kind is accused of Marxism.

The only acceptable way for society to evolve is ever-increasing privilidges for the wealthy untill average man can never hope to afford real estate and can't afford a layer.

Then we will arrive at feudalism.

Re:Why the Google layoffs are about personal ambition and po... by WalterBright on Wednesday January 25, 2023 @01:54PM (#34522552)
> Then we will arrive at feudalism

Feudalism failed when capitalism competed with it.

Re:Why the Google layoffs are about personal ambition and po... by komali2 on Wednesday January 25, 2023 @01:20AM (#34515036)
> There is a dangerous path in this rationalization that will lead you to Marxism.

Too late, I'm already a communist. A very capitalistically successful one, mind you.

Further along this thread is way off topic, I don't want to kick off a flame war of communism vs capitalism, I wanted to see what people have in mind about how companies like Google, that exist in a capitalist system, can be forced to care for the needs of their employees over the needs of their shareholders. Whether or not the system should / can be changed is, well, another thread or something lol, not for here.

That said your comment has some interesting ideas that I'm seeing as misconceptions ("some people in Europe that thought it would work" are arguably some of the most important philosophers in the western tradition) but maybe you're thinking along some lines I'm not aware of, so if you want to chat about this I'd love to do so in email, my address is on my profile page here.

Re:Why the Google layoffs are about personal ambition and po... by WalterBright on Tuesday January 24, 2023 @10:31PM (#34514049)
> But what labor did they contribute?

I.e. you're positing the "Labor Theory of Value", which is the basis of Marxism.

The LToV errs in assigning zero value to risk-taking and the fact that some people are far more productive than others.

Re:Why the Google layoffs are about personal ambition and po... by nerdponx on Tuesday January 24, 2023 @11:17PM (#34514351)
Is it any more in error than equating market price with value?
Re:Why the Google layoffs are about personal ambition and po... by WalterBright on Tuesday January 24, 2023 @11:58PM (#34514595)
Nobody has ever found a better way. What you're willing to pay for something determines its value to you.
Re:Why the Google layoffs are about personal ambition and po... by nerdponx on Wednesday January 25, 2023 @12:46AM (#34514859)
The assumption that price paid == utility is only valid in the economic equivalent of "assume no friction" from intro-level physics. The equivalence isn't guaranteed to hold once you bring individuals' budget sets and various market distortions into play (information problems, sticky prices, et alia). You see the same thing on the supply side, with the assumption that price sold == marginal cost breaking down in general, except under very specific conditions.
Re:Why the Google layoffs are about personal ambition and po... by WalterBright on Wednesday January 25, 2023 @01:51PM (#34522502)
Bottom line: you're still only valuing something by what you are willing to pay for it. That is its value to you. (Others assign a different value, but that's how the market works.)

Supply + Demand determine the value.

Re:Why the Google layoffs are about personal ambition and po... by komali2 on Thursday January 26, 2023 @10:57PM (#34542266)
Right but notice utility is mentioned nowhere. Demand is totally irrational, because it's human. See toilet paper, fujifilm x100v, tesla stock, NFTs. Supply can be arbitrarily subject to the irrational whims of humanity as well - see oil, diamonds.

"Supply + demand" seems an oversimplification of a huge chain of irrational human links.

Re:Why the Google layoffs are about personal ambition and po... by komali2 on Wednesday January 25, 2023 @01:27AM (#34515074)
Ok, so then, I'm doing a labor theory of value.

What actual risk does an investor take? Loss of capital? Compared to an employee who, in the situation where capital is lost, loses the means by which they feed and house themselves, and in the USA, provide healthcare for themselves?

On top of which, right now, investors aren't really taking much loss. This action by Google is done for shareholder value. So not only is the loss for an employee higher in a situation that "harms" a shareholder, it's also more pervasive: the employee might get fired anyway through no fault of their own, even if it's not because the company is going bankrupt and everyone's losing their money.

And while all this is happening the investor has invested in other ventures, potentially even competitors. If google goes bankrupt they lose their initial investment, which by most financial advisories I see should not account for a significant portion of their investment, retirement, or even just savings, so by material measures, they'll be fine.

Meanwhile the employee has put in their time, energy effort. They haven't been able to explore other means of making money, do research into potential investments for themselves. They've been building social capital, specific domain knowledge, client relationships, things that hold some value after a Google collapse, but not all.

At the end of the day I just don't see why what an investor does has any value at all compared to an employee. Can you help me understand better what you mean?

Re:Why the Google layoffs are about personal ambition and po... by WalterBright on Wednesday January 25, 2023 @01:52PM (#34522532)
> I just don't see why what an investor does has any value at all compared to an employee

Without investors, the employee does not get paid, as there is no money to pay him.

Re:Why the Google layoffs are about personal ambition and po... by komali2 on Thursday January 26, 2023 @10:54PM (#34542252)
Google has 256 billion dollars in revenue. Can't they use some of that to pay the employee?