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Re:Alec Baldwin Will Be Charged with Involuntary Manslaughte... by torstenvl on Friday January 20, 2023 @10:20AM (#34454244)
If you're going to pick up a weapon, point it at someone, and pull the trigger, what happens next is your responsibility, regardless of any other context.

If you aren't willing to learn the difference between dummy rounds, blanks, and live rounds, then you shouldn't be pointing firearms at people and pulling the trigger.

Re:Alec Baldwin Will Be Charged with Involuntary Manslaughte... by seanw444 on Friday January 20, 2023 @10:38AM (#34454500)
Agreed. If he wanted to have real firearms there, he needs to know how to operate real firearms. If he hired the armorer (or another person dedicated to firearms safety) to teach him how to do that, and they failed at that job, then the they should get their fair share of blame / repercussions. Which it sounds like they did, with a "negligent handling of a deadly weapon" or something.

Ultimately, though, as someone that is very familiar with guns, I have a hard time sympathizing with Baldwin. You brought real guns onto the set, and you pointed them at people. Primarily people that had no business having the guns pointed at them. It wasn't even another actor during filming, which I would have at least understood to some degree. It seems like the perfect storm of things had happened for him to "accidentally" kill this person he didn't like.

At the end of the day, any actors / set workers handling real firearms should have thorough training before using them. Trigger discipline, how to check the chamber, identifying cartridge types, emptying the chamber before setting it down, not aiming at people who aren't even actors...

Re:Alec Baldwin Will Be Charged with Involuntary Manslaughte... by RansomStark on Friday January 20, 2023 @11:44AM (#34455724)
> you pointed them at people. Primarily people that had no business having the guns pointed at them. It wasn't even another actor during filming, which I would have at least understood to some degree.

the scene involved pointing the gun towards the camera, which means the gun is pointing towards the crew.

> Trigger discipline

How do you maintain trigger discipline when the scene requires you to point a gun at someone, or in someones general direction, with your finger on the trigger?

> check the chamber, identifying cartridge types, emptying the chamber before setting it down

If an actor tries to check the chamber, messes with the cartridges, the gun immediately goes back to the armorer to be made safe before being handed back to the actor, if the actor check again, guess what happens?

It's very important to understand that on a film set the standard rules do not apply, or more precisely the rules apply in different ways.

Re:Alec Baldwin Will Be Charged with Involuntary Manslaughte... by matt-attack on Friday January 20, 2023 @12:06PM (#34456142)
Don’t forget that Baldwin (who I adore as an actor) has been vocally and voluntarily ignorant of guns and safe gun handling. He’s been one of these “I want nothing to do with them because they’re so dangerous, so I refuse to even learn about them and how to handle them safely”.

I hope this tragedy serves as a lesson for those who are “anti-gun” who seem to think there’s nobility in being willfully ignorant about a simple mechanical device.

Re:Alec Baldwin Will Be Charged with Involuntary Manslaughte... by hackinthebochs on Friday January 20, 2023 @11:48AM (#34455815)
What law is there that defines this responsibility? Modern society operates on the idea of outsourced responsibility. Why are guns uniquely different? Why should we expect an actor to personally know about firearm safety and have a personal responsibility to ensure a firearm is in a safe state? A strange pattern I've seen in discussions around guns over the years, those with gun knowledge assume everyone has or should have the same knowledge. But this is unreasonable.
Re:Alec Baldwin Will Be Charged with Involuntary Manslaughte... by torstenvl on Friday January 20, 2023 @12:20PM (#34456367)
Your comment is unanswerable because the questions you ask contain within them assumptions that are false. Modern society does not rely on outsourced responsibility. Guns are not uniquely different. Negligence does not differ for actors. And the idea that people should handle firearms without becoming knowledgeable in them is total bullshit.
Re:Alec Baldwin Will Be Charged with Involuntary Manslaughte... by hackinthebochs on Friday January 20, 2023 @12:35PM (#34456586)
>Modern society does not rely on outsourced responsibility

So you personally inspect your car for suitability, your food for safety, all amusement parks, buildings, tools, etc that you come into contact with? Yes, modern society would not be possible without outsourced responsibility.

>Negligence does not differ for actors.

Of course it does. Those with more knowledge and training are held to higher standards in specific contexts. That's why we have licensing and such. The question is how do guns fit into this context.

Re:Alec Baldwin Will Be Charged with Involuntary Manslaughte... by torstenvl on Friday January 20, 2023 @01:26PM (#34457433)
> Of course it does

I'm a Harvard-trained lawyer with over 15 years of criminal litigation experience, including in homicide. I have a former client right now serving a sentence for involuntary manslaughter (he was originally charged with murder).

You don't need to listen to me. I have neither the ability nor the desire to force you to listen to me. But I promise you I know what I'm talking about.

Re:Alec Baldwin Will Be Charged with Involuntary Manslaughte... by hackinthebochs on Friday January 20, 2023 @01:46PM (#34457765)
Why does every discussion concerning emotionally charged issues devolve into some version of this? Why can't it just be about offering arguments to clarify the landscape?
Re:Alec Baldwin Will Be Charged with Involuntary Manslaughte... by torstenvl on Friday January 20, 2023 @02:16PM (#34458242)
This isn't about an emotionally charged issue. The discussion is about the legal test for negligence. It is an objective standard: what a reasonable person would do. The specifics of the individual are irrelevant.
Re:Alec Baldwin Will Be Charged with Involuntary Manslaughte... by hackinthebochs on Friday January 20, 2023 @02:30PM (#34458463)
But what does a "reasonable person" standard say when it comes to specialist knowledge? Why would a reasonable person not expect that an armorer who is responsible for ensuring the proper state of the gun is sufficient "due caution and circumspection"?
Re:Alec Baldwin Will Be Charged with Involuntary Manslaughte... by hackinthebochs on Friday January 20, 2023 @01:02PM (#34457031)
Responding to your edit, the issue reduces to what counts as "due caution and circumspection" for someone who isn't trained in the usage of firearms. Why is having an armorer who is responsible for ensuring the proper state of the gun not sufficient "due caution and circumspection"?
Re:Alec Baldwin Will Be Charged with Involuntary Manslaughte... by matt-attack on Friday January 20, 2023 @12:02PM (#34456078)
The way I see it, it’s not unlike the expression “Workplace safety rules are written in blood”. It’s taken a century of fatalities and refinement of procedures to come to the modern set of 4 gun safety rules. They exist because of those countless deaths over the years by those who didn’t follow them. The morality of it speaks for itself.

Given how much thought, refinement and bloodshed are behind those rules, to not follow them seems immoral. Anyone handling a gun has a moral obligation to following the safety rules. Do to otherwise is criminal negligence.

Re:Alec Baldwin Will Be Charged with Involuntary Manslaughte... by hackinthebochs on Friday January 20, 2023 @12:37PM (#34456617)
The issue isn't morality, but one of legal responsibility. What is the legal theory for an actor's personal responsibility to ensure the safety of a prop gun before using it?
Re:Alec Baldwin Will Be Charged with Involuntary Manslaughte... by torstenvl on Friday January 20, 2023 @12:50PM (#34456855)
It wasn't a prop gun. It was a real gun being used as a prop.
Re:Alec Baldwin Will Be Charged with Involuntary Manslaughte... by hackinthebochs on Friday January 20, 2023 @12:54PM (#34456920)
I'm not sure why you thought honing in on the least informative word in my comment was useful.
Re:Alec Baldwin Will Be Charged with Involuntary Manslaughte... by roundandround on Friday January 20, 2023 @01:56PM (#34457927)
The US has a kind of older code of guns organically and manufactured in organizations that need people to handle guns. If you are not careful I think you are going to talk past people from places where that code seems universal.

I.e. I can understand the perspective that not checking a gun you are handed is always gross negligence even though I have friends that I don't think would know that.

Re:Alec Baldwin Will Be Charged with Involuntary Manslaughte... by mattpallissard on Friday January 20, 2023 @01:06PM (#34457111)
He broke the first two of "The Four Rules of Gun Safety"

    * All guns are always loaded
    * Never point the gun at anything you are not willing to destroy.
    * Keep your finger off the trigger until your sights are on target (and you have made the decision to shoot).
    * Be sure of your target and what is beyond it.