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Re:Alec Baldwin Will Be Charged with Involuntary Manslaughte... by ChoGGi on Friday January 20, 2023 @09:06AM (#34453281)
If an actor is handed a gun and told it has fake ammo, how would they know the difference to not be charged with involuntary manslaughter?
Re:Alec Baldwin Will Be Charged with Involuntary Manslaughte... by perrygeo on Friday January 20, 2023 @09:28AM (#34453587)
The actor wouldn't. The producer who let live ammo anywhere near a set would.

He's being charged as the head of production, not as the actor who was unfortunate enough to pull the trigger. The fact that he's both is just a cruel twist of fate.

Re:Alec Baldwin Will Be Charged with Involuntary Manslaughte... by ianceicys on Friday January 20, 2023 @10:10AM (#34454104)
"cruel twist of fate." no Alec Baldwin was not responsible as both a producer and actor, now he is being held accountable as he was in every sense of the word responsible for manslaughter...even involuntarily.

Cruelty is reserved for the grief of the individual who had their life abruptly ended, and the grief of family of the deceased.

Re:Alec Baldwin Will Be Charged with Involuntary Manslaughte... by matthewdgreen on Friday January 20, 2023 @11:10AM (#34455070)
According to CNN [1] this is not true. Baldwin is facing charges for his direct actions as an actor (who pulled the trigger) and as the producer. I imagine this will be very confusing for a jury to unpack, and I think it’s unfortunate. To quote the DA:

Other actors — including "A-list" celebrities — consulted by prosecutors said they "always check their guns or have someone check it in front of them," Carmack-Altwies told CNN shortly after announcing her intention to file involuntary manslaughter charges. Every person that handles a gun has a duty to make sure that if they're going to handle that gun, point it at someone and pull the trigger, that it is not going to fire a projectile and kill someone," she said. She added, "An actor does not get a free pass just because they are an actor. That is what is so important. We are saying here in New Mexico, that everyone is equal under the law."

The piece goes on to note that the “criminal liability as a producer” case would have different requirements than the “criminal liability as an actor” case, presumably because one case would need to argue that on-set safety was actually Baldwin’s responsibility and he was specifically negligent in that duty. But based on the DA’s quotes it looks like she is going for a very broad theory of liability that mixes the two roles up (ie as the producer he should have known to take special care when handed a cold gun as an actor.) It says that CNN’s legal expert found the case to be very unusual, FWIW. I’ll be honest that this case has a whiff of “small town DA wanting to get a bigger political profile” to it, but I guess we’ll see.

[1] https://www.kcra.com/amp/article/alec-baldwin-rust-charges-w...

Re:Alec Baldwin Will Be Charged with Involuntary Manslaughte... by torstenvl on Friday January 20, 2023 @11:29AM (#34455446)
I had a distantly similar fact pattern when I was a prosecutor in a Marine Corps hazing case. We charged the Platoon Sergeant both for his personal role in pounding new rank into the new Corporal's chest and for leadership role in allowing it to happen (several other NCOs participated). He was convicted on both.

The law and facts here are obviously very different. But my experience is that the members panel (jury) was able to distinguish between the two and understand that the defendant had two different sets of responsibilities and violated them both.

Re:Alec Baldwin Will Be Charged with Involuntary Manslaughte... by perrygeo on Friday January 20, 2023 @11:19AM (#34455262)
Interesting! Thanks for the clarification.

Gun safety etiquette dictates that the handler is always responsible for their own ammo. Alec the actor should definitely not get a free pass. I didn't realize there were criminal ramifications too.

Alec the producer is guilty of a far worse crime IMO. It could have easily been someone else who pulled the trigger.

Re:Alec Baldwin Will Be Charged with Involuntary Manslaughte... by matthewdgreen on Friday January 20, 2023 @11:45AM (#34455745)
Standard gun safety procedures are excellent, but don’t really have any bearing here. Just as a professional chemical laboratory has different safety procedures (and responsibilities/expectations for workers) than, say, your house: a film set also has different expectations and safety procedures when it comes to weapons.

I’m no expert, but my understanding is that film sets need to allow actors to use guns in specific ways that would never be acceptable in normal gun ownership, such as to point (“cold”) props at people and pull the trigger. To enable this specialized usage the industry has developed a very specific set of safety standards tailored to this use-case. It involves hiring specially-trained professional armorers to manage all of the prop weapons on the set, and it also puts in place a new set of communication procedures to ensure that armorers can communicate with actors to let them know when they’re dealing with an unsafe weapon. From what I can tell, Baldwin the actor followed these safety procedures exactly as expected.

There is a separate question of whether Baldwin the executive producer has liability. To answer that you can’t just say “but he has a producer credit!” You’d need to actually show that (1) he had responsibility over hiring or on-set safety, and separately that (2) in that role he was negligent. It’s not really clear that an executive producer has that responsibility, usually it’s just a meaningless vanity credit.

What’s confusing about this case (from what I can tell) is that the DA realizes that both of these individual cases is kind of weak. And so instead she’s going for a hybrid case where Baldwin the actor followed the normal safety standards, but this isn’t sufficient because he somehow has to follow a non-standard (higher) set of safety standards because “as the producer he should have been aware that the professional armorer wasn’t trustworthy.” I’m not saying this argument is wrong, exactly. But I think it’s vague enough that it might allow a jury to disregard the legal safety requirements and invent new ones out of whole cloth.

PS I find this case fascinating and I don’t apologize for it! But I do apologize for the long post.

Re:Alec Baldwin Will Be Charged with Involuntary Manslaughte... by hgsgm on Friday January 20, 2023 @11:45AM (#34455752)
This may be that the prosecutor thinks they have a case for producers, and then piled speculative charges in top for intimidation. Or, in this specific case where actor Baldwin knew the selfsame producer Baldwin was negligent regarding safety, he shouldn't have known better. A different actor who was not also producer might not have caught a charge.
Re:Alec Baldwin Will Be Charged with Involuntary Manslaughte... by bogantech on Friday January 20, 2023 @09:28AM (#34453591)
They are supposed to follow strict safety rules to prevent things like this happening, like guns being handed over only by the armorer (who wasn't even there in this instance).

I'm pretty sure that being the film's producer he is liable.

Re:Alec Baldwin Will Be Charged with Involuntary Manslaughte... by torstenvl on Friday January 20, 2023 @10:20AM (#34454244)
If you're going to pick up a weapon, point it at someone, and pull the trigger, what happens next is your responsibility, regardless of any other context.

If you aren't willing to learn the difference between dummy rounds, blanks, and live rounds, then you shouldn't be pointing firearms at people and pulling the trigger.

Re:Alec Baldwin Will Be Charged with Involuntary Manslaughte... by seanw444 on Friday January 20, 2023 @10:38AM (#34454500)
Agreed. If he wanted to have real firearms there, he needs to know how to operate real firearms. If he hired the armorer (or another person dedicated to firearms safety) to teach him how to do that, and they failed at that job, then the they should get their fair share of blame / repercussions. Which it sounds like they did, with a "negligent handling of a deadly weapon" or something.

Ultimately, though, as someone that is very familiar with guns, I have a hard time sympathizing with Baldwin. You brought real guns onto the set, and you pointed them at people. Primarily people that had no business having the guns pointed at them. It wasn't even another actor during filming, which I would have at least understood to some degree. It seems like the perfect storm of things had happened for him to "accidentally" kill this person he didn't like.

At the end of the day, any actors / set workers handling real firearms should have thorough training before using them. Trigger discipline, how to check the chamber, identifying cartridge types, emptying the chamber before setting it down, not aiming at people who aren't even actors...

Re:Alec Baldwin Will Be Charged with Involuntary Manslaughte... by RansomStark on Friday January 20, 2023 @11:44AM (#34455724)
> you pointed them at people. Primarily people that had no business having the guns pointed at them. It wasn't even another actor during filming, which I would have at least understood to some degree.

the scene involved pointing the gun towards the camera, which means the gun is pointing towards the crew.

> Trigger discipline

How do you maintain trigger discipline when the scene requires you to point a gun at someone, or in someones general direction, with your finger on the trigger?

> check the chamber, identifying cartridge types, emptying the chamber before setting it down

If an actor tries to check the chamber, messes with the cartridges, the gun immediately goes back to the armorer to be made safe before being handed back to the actor, if the actor check again, guess what happens?

It's very important to understand that on a film set the standard rules do not apply, or more precisely the rules apply in different ways.

Re:Alec Baldwin Will Be Charged with Involuntary Manslaughte... by matt-attack on Friday January 20, 2023 @12:06PM (#34456142)
Don’t forget that Baldwin (who I adore as an actor) has been vocally and voluntarily ignorant of guns and safe gun handling. He’s been one of these “I want nothing to do with them because they’re so dangerous, so I refuse to even learn about them and how to handle them safely”.

I hope this tragedy serves as a lesson for those who are “anti-gun” who seem to think there’s nobility in being willfully ignorant about a simple mechanical device.

Re:Alec Baldwin Will Be Charged with Involuntary Manslaughte... by hackinthebochs on Friday January 20, 2023 @11:48AM (#34455815)
What law is there that defines this responsibility? Modern society operates on the idea of outsourced responsibility. Why are guns uniquely different? Why should we expect an actor to personally know about firearm safety and have a personal responsibility to ensure a firearm is in a safe state? A strange pattern I've seen in discussions around guns over the years, those with gun knowledge assume everyone has or should have the same knowledge. But this is unreasonable.
Re:Alec Baldwin Will Be Charged with Involuntary Manslaughte... by torstenvl on Friday January 20, 2023 @12:20PM (#34456367)
Your comment is unanswerable because the questions you ask contain within them assumptions that are false. Modern society does not rely on outsourced responsibility. Guns are not uniquely different. Negligence does not differ for actors. And the idea that people should handle firearms without becoming knowledgeable in them is total bullshit.
Re:Alec Baldwin Will Be Charged with Involuntary Manslaughte... by hackinthebochs on Friday January 20, 2023 @12:35PM (#34456586)
>Modern society does not rely on outsourced responsibility

So you personally inspect your car for suitability, your food for safety, all amusement parks, buildings, tools, etc that you come into contact with? Yes, modern society would not be possible without outsourced responsibility.

>Negligence does not differ for actors.

Of course it does. Those with more knowledge and training are held to higher standards in specific contexts. That's why we have licensing and such. The question is how do guns fit into this context.

Re:Alec Baldwin Will Be Charged with Involuntary Manslaughte... by torstenvl on Friday January 20, 2023 @01:26PM (#34457433)
> Of course it does

I'm a Harvard-trained lawyer with over 15 years of criminal litigation experience, including in homicide. I have a former client right now serving a sentence for involuntary manslaughter (he was originally charged with murder).

You don't need to listen to me. I have neither the ability nor the desire to force you to listen to me. But I promise you I know what I'm talking about.

Re:Alec Baldwin Will Be Charged with Involuntary Manslaughte... by hackinthebochs on Friday January 20, 2023 @01:46PM (#34457765)
Why does every discussion concerning emotionally charged issues devolve into some version of this? Why can't it just be about offering arguments to clarify the landscape?
Re:Alec Baldwin Will Be Charged with Involuntary Manslaughte... by torstenvl on Friday January 20, 2023 @02:16PM (#34458242)
This isn't about an emotionally charged issue. The discussion is about the legal test for negligence. It is an objective standard: what a reasonable person would do. The specifics of the individual are irrelevant.
Re:Alec Baldwin Will Be Charged with Involuntary Manslaughte... by hackinthebochs on Friday January 20, 2023 @02:30PM (#34458463)
But what does a "reasonable person" standard say when it comes to specialist knowledge? Why would a reasonable person not expect that an armorer who is responsible for ensuring the proper state of the gun is sufficient "due caution and circumspection"?
Re:Alec Baldwin Will Be Charged with Involuntary Manslaughte... by hackinthebochs on Friday January 20, 2023 @01:02PM (#34457031)
Responding to your edit, the issue reduces to what counts as "due caution and circumspection" for someone who isn't trained in the usage of firearms. Why is having an armorer who is responsible for ensuring the proper state of the gun not sufficient "due caution and circumspection"?
Re:Alec Baldwin Will Be Charged with Involuntary Manslaughte... by matt-attack on Friday January 20, 2023 @12:02PM (#34456078)
The way I see it, it’s not unlike the expression “Workplace safety rules are written in blood”. It’s taken a century of fatalities and refinement of procedures to come to the modern set of 4 gun safety rules. They exist because of those countless deaths over the years by those who didn’t follow them. The morality of it speaks for itself.

Given how much thought, refinement and bloodshed are behind those rules, to not follow them seems immoral. Anyone handling a gun has a moral obligation to following the safety rules. Do to otherwise is criminal negligence.

Re:Alec Baldwin Will Be Charged with Involuntary Manslaughte... by hackinthebochs on Friday January 20, 2023 @12:37PM (#34456617)
The issue isn't morality, but one of legal responsibility. What is the legal theory for an actor's personal responsibility to ensure the safety of a prop gun before using it?
Re:Alec Baldwin Will Be Charged with Involuntary Manslaughte... by torstenvl on Friday January 20, 2023 @12:50PM (#34456855)
It wasn't a prop gun. It was a real gun being used as a prop.
Re:Alec Baldwin Will Be Charged with Involuntary Manslaughte... by hackinthebochs on Friday January 20, 2023 @12:54PM (#34456920)
I'm not sure why you thought honing in on the least informative word in my comment was useful.
Re:Alec Baldwin Will Be Charged with Involuntary Manslaughte... by roundandround on Friday January 20, 2023 @01:56PM (#34457927)
The US has a kind of older code of guns organically and manufactured in organizations that need people to handle guns. If you are not careful I think you are going to talk past people from places where that code seems universal.

I.e. I can understand the perspective that not checking a gun you are handed is always gross negligence even though I have friends that I don't think would know that.

Re:Alec Baldwin Will Be Charged with Involuntary Manslaughte... by mattpallissard on Friday January 20, 2023 @01:06PM (#34457111)
He broke the first two of "The Four Rules of Gun Safety"

    * All guns are always loaded
    * Never point the gun at anything you are not willing to destroy.
    * Keep your finger off the trigger until your sights are on target (and you have made the decision to shoot).
    * Be sure of your target and what is beyond it.