News for hackers. Stuff that matters.
Re:Peter Thiel’s fund wound down 8-year Bitcoin bet before m... by kyleyeats on Thursday January 19, 2023 @03:37PM (#34445271)
I've been reading a lot of the Coinfessions account on Twitter. It's where people post crypto horror stories anonymously.

It's weird to think that they "generated" 1.8bn. If I made 1.8bn selling sandwiches, you could probably find evidence of it somewhere, like in product packaging in dumps. But here the only thing left behind is a bunch of guys going "Yeah I left my position open and drained my life savings by accident."

Like, every bit of that money represents money that someone else lost, and basically nothing else. I can't wrap my head around it.

Re:Peter Thiel’s fund wound down 8-year Bitcoin bet before m... by klyrs on Thursday January 19, 2023 @03:47PM (#34445387)
First off, I'd like to commend you for using landfill volume as a proxy for productivity. It's refreshingly honest and I wish economists would take note.

That said, there are last-gen GPUs and ASICs going to landfills. Some people are actually getting paid to make the inputs to the otherwise-ephemeral pseudocurrency. Not to mention all of the CO2 released into the atmosphere... you can't see it but that $1.8B put it there.

Re:Peter Thiel’s fund wound down 8-year Bitcoin bet before m... by samwillis on Thursday January 19, 2023 @04:24PM (#34445815)
My pet theory is that the massive excess in GPUs from the crypto explosion are being fed back into the AI explosion we are seeing now.

In reality I wander how many former mining GPU farms are now doing AI training...

Re:Peter Thiel’s fund wound down 8-year Bitcoin bet before m... by dougmwne on Thursday January 19, 2023 @03:50PM (#34445417)
And the paper clip factories churn on.
Re:Peter Thiel’s fund wound down 8-year Bitcoin bet before m... by samwillis on Thursday January 19, 2023 @04:25PM (#34445826)
Do not click this link, you will loose at least 6hrs of your life:

https://www.decisionproblem.com/paperclips/index2.html

Re:Peter Thiel’s fund wound down 8-year Bitcoin bet before m... by klyrs on Thursday January 19, 2023 @08:15PM (#34447955)
lol, mobile browsers are impervious, I was gone in 10 seconds flat
Re:Peter Thiel’s fund wound down 8-year Bitcoin bet before m... by gog on Friday January 20, 2023 @04:15AM (#34450665)
Unfortunately you are correct.
Re:Peter Thiel’s fund wound down 8-year Bitcoin bet before m... by dsfyu404ed on Thursday January 19, 2023 @03:51PM (#34445438)
People doing "economist things" but with money at stake (i.e. financial analysts) already do that stuff.
Re:Peter Thiel’s fund wound down 8-year Bitcoin bet before m... by honkler on Thursday January 19, 2023 @03:50PM (#34445422)
some use freight activity as a measure of economy, atleast "real economy".
Re:Peter Thiel’s fund wound down 8-year Bitcoin bet before m... by RC_ITR on Thursday January 19, 2023 @03:52PM (#34445446)
And therefore completely ignore the 50% of the global economy that is services.
Re:Peter Thiel’s fund wound down 8-year Bitcoin bet before m... by Tostino on Thursday January 19, 2023 @04:19PM (#34445752)
Not entirely, most services require some products as inputs, so they are still measured in some way.
Re:Peter Thiel’s fund wound down 8-year Bitcoin bet before m... by RC_ITR on Thursday January 19, 2023 @04:40PM (#34446008)
What about electricity generation requires a shipping container?
Re:Peter Thiel’s fund wound down 8-year Bitcoin bet before m... by honkler on Thursday January 19, 2023 @05:31PM (#34446601)
freight in this context generally includes commercial rail freight.
Re:Peter Thiel’s fund wound down 8-year Bitcoin bet before m... by RC_ITR on Thursday January 19, 2023 @06:19PM (#34447032)
Do we ship natural gas via rail now? Are we replacing our turbines every year?

Plenty of economic activity that is not fake involves no freight.

Re:Peter Thiel’s fund wound down 8-year Bitcoin bet before m... by honkler on Thursday January 19, 2023 @06:39PM (#34447229)
electricity consumption to measure economic activity is another technique, but judging by your reaction, "fake economy" hit a nerve.
Re:Peter Thiel’s fund wound down 8-year Bitcoin bet before m... by RC_ITR on Sunday January 22, 2023 @02:42PM (#34481448)
Yeah, because people who believe “services are a fake part of the economy” vote and their representatives pass bad economic policy as a result.
Re:Peter Thiel’s fund wound down 8-year Bitcoin bet before m... by brg on Thursday January 19, 2023 @05:35PM (#34446637)
* * *
Re:Peter Thiel’s fund wound down 8-year Bitcoin bet before m... by RC_ITR on Thursday January 19, 2023 @06:21PM (#34447049)
>Energy production is kit a self contained endeavor. Transformers, steel, copper, pipe, valves, digital equipment for monitoring and control systems are just some of the necessary inputs for construction and maintenance.

Freight is a very poor way to measure electricity output. Both turbines and balance of plant equipment usually last 40 years (so we replace c. 2.5% in a given year) and now a days, most fuel is piped.

>Beyond that, efficient use energy production requires some place for it to be used, Generally home and industry appliances.

Yes, all of which is economic activity unrelated to freight.

Re:Peter Thiel’s fund wound down 8-year Bitcoin bet before m... by honkler on Thursday January 19, 2023 @04:19PM (#34445746)
aka fake economy.
Re:Peter Thiel’s fund wound down 8-year Bitcoin bet before m... by RC_ITR on Thursday January 19, 2023 @04:40PM (#34446004)
Yeah, the illusion of electricity and the Internet...
Re:Peter Thiel’s fund wound down 8-year Bitcoin bet before m... by WeylandYutani on Thursday January 19, 2023 @05:43PM (#34446709)
All of the crypto companies have had layoffs since the crash. The big exchanges are downsizing- but obviously there's still some money in it.
Re:Peter Thiel’s fund wound down 8-year Bitcoin bet before m... by a4isms on Thursday January 19, 2023 @03:53PM (#34445459)
In the movie “Quicksilver,” Kevin Bacon plays some kind of (commodities) trader who lost an enormous amount of money betting the wrong way and retires from trading to become a bike courier.

He has a friend over at his loft, and while looking at pictures from his finance days, she asks, “What happened to all the money?”

His reply is a classic:

“It’s still there, it’s just in other people’s pockets.”

——

That’s all I see in crypto speculation. It’s a game that involves shuffling money between players, without actually creating new wealth.

(Also, the casino is betting against you and sometimes isn’t satisfied with their rake, so they “rug pull” and leave everyone holding worthless chips. But that is another issue.)

This is very different from, say, selling software that runs a business. Your software is not just transferring money from your customer to you, it’s literally creating new wealth by making your customer more productive.

Re:Peter Thiel’s fund wound down 8-year Bitcoin bet before m... by diegocerdan on Thursday January 19, 2023 @04:41PM (#34446019)
The function of Store of Value (SoV) of any money is acquired by common belief of it's worth. It happened with gold in a very long time-span. People holding gold would not benefit of the increase of price as it took too long.

Gold... what if this common belief can be upgraded to a better form of money?

Bitcoin is energy quite energy intense and slow in the number of transactions but gold has many drawbacks too! It's a heavy rock, can't be easily split for payments, you have to spend efforts in custody and can't be transferred digitally.

Bitcoin... what if this common belief can be upgraded to a better form of money?

Ethereum is way more complex than Bitcoin but solves through clever engineering most of it's drawbacks. Let the Market decide which form of money is best.

Re:Peter Thiel’s fund wound down 8-year Bitcoin bet before m... by a4isms on Thursday January 19, 2023 @05:13PM (#34446406)
I spoke about crypto speculation, and I was explicit about that. I choose not to debate speculative claims about crypto's potential for becoming a useful "store of value" or "currency for commerce" at this time and in this place.

As to letting the market decide things, I lived through the Bre-X scandal, where the market decided to invest in a fake mine, and real lives were ruined. I believe in regulated marketplaces.

Re:Peter Thiel’s fund wound down 8-year Bitcoin bet before m... by hungryforcodes on Thursday January 19, 2023 @09:52PM (#34448628)
Canadians are overly protective of market places. It's my money -- not yours. I'll trade it or speculate it as I want.
Re:Peter Thiel’s fund wound down 8-year Bitcoin bet before m... by phs318u on Thursday January 19, 2023 @08:12PM (#34447936)
The common belief of worth is where similarities between bitcoin and gold end.

What you list as drawbacks of gold are exactly the thing that preclude it being so easily weaponised for scams/fraud/rapid-wealth-redistribution.

You call bitcoin a SoV but further down describe it as a form of money. You also have an implicit assumption about what makes a "better" form of money. I'd like to read a bit more about what defines "better" in your opinion.

Re:Peter Thiel’s fund wound down 8-year Bitcoin bet before m... by audleman on Thursday January 19, 2023 @09:25PM (#34448447)
Re:Peter Thiel’s fund wound down 8-year Bitcoin bet before m... by diegocerdan on Friday January 20, 2023 @12:17PM (#34456330)
> The common belief of worth is where similarities between bitcoin and gold end Sure, it's also enough.

> You call bitcoin a SoV but further down describe it as a form of money. The primary functions which distinguish money are as a Medium of Exchange, a Unit of Account, a Store of Value: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Money

> I'd like to read a bit more about what defines "better" in your opinion. There is definitely a list of features but I would argue that being hard money is the most important feature. Meaning hard/sound where the nominal amount of money does not change.

Bitcoin in definitely hard but Ethereum does even better by being deflationary. As network transactions are slowly reducing the total amount in circulation.

Other nice features of Bitcoin/Ethereum vs Gold/Dollar are: digital, non-seizable and no third party risk.

Re:Peter Thiel’s fund wound down 8-year Bitcoin bet before m... by jaywalk on Thursday January 19, 2023 @03:56PM (#34445492)
And the "new wealth" being "created" for your customer comes from... other people's pockets.
Re:Peter Thiel’s fund wound down 8-year Bitcoin bet before m... by eldritch_4ier on Thursday January 19, 2023 @03:59PM (#34445530)
This is obviously not true. If there was no new wealth in the world than there was 50 years ago, we wouldn’t be so much more well off despite have billions more people.
Re:Peter Thiel’s fund wound down 8-year Bitcoin bet before m... by darepublic on Thursday January 19, 2023 @04:06PM (#34445620)
It's definitely subjective. I.e. if we harm the livability of the earth to create new tech saying there is more wealth is not false per se but based on your pov
Re:Peter Thiel’s fund wound down 8-year Bitcoin bet before m... by WeylandYutani on Thursday January 19, 2023 @05:41PM (#34446696)
That's just humanity being parasites. Apparently the only possible growth we can come up with is population increase.
Re:Peter Thiel’s fund wound down 8-year Bitcoin bet before m... by inawarminister on Thursday January 19, 2023 @06:24PM (#34447080)
Population increase came after we unlocked unprecedented, crazy growth.

The industrial revolution demographics might be an interesting read.

Re:Peter Thiel’s fund wound down 8-year Bitcoin bet before m... by wmf on Thursday January 19, 2023 @04:06PM (#34445616)
New wealth is being created in the world but not by crypto.
Re:Peter Thiel’s fund wound down 8-year Bitcoin bet before m... by ElectricalUnion on Thursday January 19, 2023 @05:03PM (#34446310)
> That’s all I see in crypto speculation. It’s a game that involves shuffling money between players, without actually creating new wealth.

Just shuffling money between players is downplaying it.

"Crypto" often just sends "value" to the bitbucket either intentionally or because of operational errors.

Re:Peter Thiel’s fund wound down 8-year Bitcoin bet before m... by me_me_me on Friday January 20, 2023 @05:26AM (#34451080)
> It’s a game that involves shuffling money between players, without actually creating new wealth.

You can replace "shuffling money" with "shuffling commodities" and you have equally valid statement.

Commodities trades are just middleman between middleman, they dont do anything but inflate prices of goods.

Historically futures were good idea and were exchanged between producer and manufactures as a bet for more stable future (for both parties), not anymore.

Re:Peter Thiel’s fund wound down 8-year Bitcoin bet before m... by FatActor on Thursday January 19, 2023 @03:56PM (#34445493)
I get tired of hearing day after day about billionaires making not just billions, but 10's and 100's of billions without doing much of anything except having impeccable timing... and a lot of money to invest.
Re:Peter Thiel’s fund wound down 8-year Bitcoin bet before m... by rcme on Thursday January 19, 2023 @05:16PM (#34446447)
Timing is everything, as they say.
Re:Peter Thiel’s fund wound down 8-year Bitcoin bet before m... by FatActor on Thursday January 19, 2023 @06:15PM (#34446992)
The 2000+ billionaires in the world sure do have amazing timing. Truly flawless almost.
Re:Peter Thiel’s fund wound down 8-year Bitcoin bet before m... by badrabbit on Thursday January 19, 2023 @04:05PM (#34445604)
You ever heard of the lottery? Guess what? Every bit of it is money someone lost and half of it funds your government. Wait till you hear about options trading and people committing suicide over bad trades.
Re:Peter Thiel’s fund wound down 8-year Bitcoin bet before m... by brianwawok on Thursday January 19, 2023 @04:19PM (#34445742)
You aren’t wrong, but people have very different mindsets.

People play the lotto for fun. They think hey maybe I’ll get lucky and win. Sure there are addicts , but I don’t think default behavior is “if I play this I’ll be rich “

Crypto is literally “if I trade this I’ll get rich”.

But, both are roughly 0 sum games in the end as you rightly pointed out.

Re:Peter Thiel’s fund wound down 8-year Bitcoin bet before m... by badrabbit on Friday January 20, 2023 @09:37AM (#34453713)
Then their mindset is the problem, not everyone else or the crypto ecosystem. The risk behind the volatility and instability is your responsibility to understand. No one is deceiving or misleading people about these risks. If there are "get rich quick" schemes around crypto, I agree they should be prosecuted for fraud.
Re:Peter Thiel’s fund wound down 8-year Bitcoin bet before m... by acdha on Friday January 20, 2023 @09:41AM (#34453764)
> No one is deceiving or misleading people about these risks

Almost everyone in cryptocurrency has deceiving prospective buyers for years. You can still find people shilling the long-term value of Bitcoin and until the crash you could throw a rock and hit someone claiming NFTs were an investment or saying that it was just like the stock market.

That was the source of so much of the opposition on HN: it’s not that it was new but that it was being sold as something it transparently wasn’t, and perhaps 5% of the people in the field could engage intellectually with people who asked about fundamentals. Had people been selling digital lotto tickets, far fewer people would have objected because the risk and benefit profiles would have been accurate.

Re:Peter Thiel’s fund wound down 8-year Bitcoin bet before m... by brianwawok on Tuesday January 24, 2023 @12:37PM (#34507006)
Tell me how many articles you can find on the web about how Crypto is the path to get rich.

Now repeat the search with Lotto or Slot Machines.

The information out there is not at all unbiased or fair.

Re:Peter Thiel’s fund wound down 8-year Bitcoin bet before m... by theragra on Thursday January 19, 2023 @04:27PM (#34445845)
Strictly speaking, this is not true. Crypto is used by many countries with tight/problematic banking regimes to send/exchange money. Ironically, both by Ukrainians and russians, for example. Another thing is buying drugs on the darknet. Whatever your opinion of that is, the fact is crypto has some usages, though not a lot rn.
Re:Peter Thiel’s fund wound down 8-year Bitcoin bet before m... by colordrops on Thursday January 19, 2023 @04:50PM (#34446135)
Those are pretty big use cases but not "authorized". Nevertheless, they are real use cases.
Re:Peter Thiel’s fund wound down 8-year Bitcoin bet before m... by kumarvvr on Thursday January 19, 2023 @05:48PM (#34446742)
As long as crypto is touted as "investment", this is bound to happen.

Crypto isn't about mining anymore.

Re:Peter Thiel’s fund wound down 8-year Bitcoin bet before m... by loandbehold on Thursday January 19, 2023 @06:22PM (#34447064)
It's actually worse than that because of cost of mining. It's a negative-sum game. People who lost money paid those who made money plus they paid for a bunch of useless computations.