News for hackers. Stuff that matters.
Re:Wikipedia editors serving long sentences in Saudi Arabia ... by WeylandYutani on Monday January 16, 2023 @02:02PM (#34404224)
You will get a lot of hate for this but I must admit:

What made Western Europe diverge from places like Russia or Saudi Arabia?

Individuality seems to have been invented and embraced by European and American intelligentsia.

Re:Wikipedia editors serving long sentences in Saudi Arabia ... by starwind on Monday January 16, 2023 @02:19PM (#34404420)
Certainly a respect for the individual played a role. Thomas Hobbes argued for a strong monarch specifically to protect their subjects and their subjects’ property. Other philosophers like John Lock, David Hume, Adam Smith, and John Stuart Mill would expand on this and build the classically liberal tradition.

But we also can’t underestimate the impact of: 1) abundant energy sources—initially wood and then coal that could power machinery. 2) a scientific tradition with engineering applications in mind. 3) the Black Plague that let people just drop their scythes and move to the city to become tradesmen and earn a better living. 4) the Common Law tradition placing property rights and the right to contract on near-sacred grounds. 5) Access to abundant fishing off the coast of what became North America.

I don't think there's any one thing we can point to explain the rise of West, it's a confluence of factors that I'm very grateful happened before I was born

Re:Wikipedia editors serving long sentences in Saudi Arabia ... by 908B64B197 on Monday January 16, 2023 @03:13PM (#34404959)
6) There are several similar but different societies that shared a common ancestry (with the Romans and Greeks)

This created an intense competition where the best ideas would survive.

As trade grew so did the exchange of ideas in Europe. Different regimes had different views on intellectuals. Famously, Da Vinci and Voltaire had multiple patrons through their lives.

Re:Wikipedia editors serving long sentences in Saudi Arabia ... by johnchristopher on Monday January 16, 2023 @05:57PM (#34406646)
> This created an intense competition where the best ideas would survive.

Claiming they are best because they survive is survivorship bias.

Re:Wikipedia editors serving long sentences in Saudi Arabia ... by JumpCrisscross on Monday January 16, 2023 @08:03PM (#34407852)
> Claiming they are best because they survive is survivorship bias

No, it’s not. Only measuring survivors is survivorship bias.

Re:Wikipedia editors serving long sentences in Saudi Arabia ... by johnchristopher on Monday January 16, 2023 @08:21PM (#34407988)
Which is what's happening here.
Re:Wikipedia editors serving long sentences in Saudi Arabia ... by JumpCrisscross on Monday January 16, 2023 @08:43PM (#34408160)
> Which is what's happening here

Not really. It’s saying increases competitive pressure results in a more-competitive output. That’s almost by definition true. Products of competition tend to be fitter than not. If ten fish of a rainbow of colors are introduced to an environment and only the red ones survive, they are fitter. If one looks at the surviving fish and concludes only red fish were introduced to the environment, that is survivorship bias.

Re:Wikipedia editors serving long sentences in Saudi Arabia ... by JumpCrisscross on Monday January 16, 2023 @02:17PM (#34404398)
> What made Western Europe diverge from places like Russia or Saudi Arabia?

The Black Death increased labour’s bargaining power right before the Industrial Revolution. It’s a lucky set of quirks that gave Enlightenment-era ideas fertile soil to land on.

Re:Wikipedia editors serving long sentences in Saudi Arabia ... by LAC-Tech on Monday January 16, 2023 @02:33PM (#34404571)
The end of the Black Death occurred over 400 years before the start of the Industrial Revolution.
Re:Wikipedia editors serving long sentences in Saudi Arabia ... by JumpCrisscross on Monday January 16, 2023 @03:12PM (#34404952)
> end of the Black Death occurred over 400 years before the start of the Industrial Revolution

“Right before” was hyperbole. The population, and in particular, labor effects, were nevertheless persistent. Western labor was anomalously expensive.

Re:Wikipedia editors serving long sentences in Saudi Arabia ... by LAC-Tech on Monday January 16, 2023 @06:22PM (#34406930)
Why would you double down at this point?

Just admit you were completely wrong and move on. It's fine, I'm wrong a lot too.

Re:Wikipedia editors serving long sentences in Saudi Arabia ... by JumpCrisscross on Monday January 16, 2023 @08:01PM (#34407828)
> Why would you double down at this point?

Because the thesis holds [1][2]. It’s far from a controversial theory in medieval and developmental economics.

[1] https://books.google.com/books?hl=en&lr=&id=EUoCBAAAQBAJ&oi=...

[2] https://scholar.google.com/scholar?hl=en&as_sdt=0%2C51&q=Bla...

Re:Wikipedia editors serving long sentences in Saudi Arabia ... by rayiner on Monday January 16, 2023 @11:05PM (#34409007)
Why would you think you’ve dunked on him when you’re the one who is wrong? The divergence between Europe and the rest of the world began in the 15th and 16th century: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Great_Divergence. The divergence became massive during the Industrial Revolution, but it was underway long before that.
Re:Wikipedia editors serving long sentences in Saudi Arabia ... by LAC-Tech on Tuesday January 17, 2023 @12:00AM (#34409325)
Because he said that "The Black Death increased labour’s bargaining power right before the Industrial Revolution."

Come on, that's hilariously wrong, and no attempt to walk it back makes it less funny.

Of course, I'm just a bit on edge because I'm writing this post right after the 30 years war has started.

Re:Wikipedia editors serving long sentences in Saudi Arabia ... by CyanBird on Monday January 16, 2023 @02:49PM (#34404717)
>What made Western Europe diverge from places like Russia or Saudi Arabia?

University level international relations courses generally start on the 30years war, I feel it is appropriate for that to be considered "the rough start" of "honest to god modernity" yeah

Re:Wikipedia editors serving long sentences in Saudi Arabia ... by rayiner on Monday January 16, 2023 @02:49PM (#34404719)
Western individualism, like nearly every other aspect of western culture, has its roots in Christianity. Europe had already diverged long before the “intelligentsia” you’re talking about.
Re:Wikipedia editors serving long sentences in Saudi Arabia ... by jdminhbg on Monday January 16, 2023 @03:04PM (#34404868)
> What made Western Europe diverge from places like Russia or Saudi Arabia?

Joseph Henrich says it’s the medieval church’s prohibition on cousin marriage, which dissolved the strong kinship bonds that dominate the rest of the world. He has a book on the subject called The WEIRDest People In The World which is good.

Re:Wikipedia editors serving long sentences in Saudi Arabia ... by WeylandYutani on Monday January 16, 2023 @04:18PM (#34405611)
Wow sounds interesting! Thanks for the recommendation.