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Re:Crypto.com Will Delist Tether in Canada by davidcbc on Tuesday January 10, 2023 @09:14PM (#34334248)
> We don't know if there is enough USD in Tether's coffer to redeem all the withdrawals

We can be pretty confident that they don't. If they did they would have a third party accounting firm provide an attestation that they did

Re:Crypto.com Will Delist Tether in Canada by nl on Tuesday January 10, 2023 @09:50PM (#34334491)
You mean like these ones? https://tether.to/en/transparency/#reports

The most recent was Sep 2022 by BDO.

They have a mix of assets (as you'd expect, because they have different liquidity requirements). But the majority is in short term (<45 day) US Treasury Bonds or Cash and Bank deposits. The other largest asset class is money-market funds, which is a pretty well understood asset class.

Re:Crypto.com Will Delist Tether in Canada by TylerE on Tuesday January 10, 2023 @10:17PM (#34334641)
What auditor are they on now? When even one’s in the Caymans don’t touch you that says something.
Re:Crypto.com Will Delist Tether in Canada by nl on Wednesday January 11, 2023 @01:20AM (#34335638)
Note that an attestation isn't an audit.

It's not nothing though - certainly more than FTX had.

Re:Crypto.com Will Delist Tether in Canada by raverbashing on Tuesday January 10, 2023 @10:42PM (#34334768)
I'm sure FTX looked great on paper before it all blew up
Re:Crypto.com Will Delist Tether in Canada by nl on Wednesday January 11, 2023 @01:20AM (#34335636)
I'm not defending them.

But I am noting they do have 3rd-party attestations (NOT audits!) which is the same as what Circle does with USDC.

FTX used their FTT token to prop up their balance sheet. This attestations says USDT isn't like that.

Re:Crypto.com Will Delist Tether in Canada by lmm on Wednesday January 11, 2023 @01:23AM (#34335657)
As a matter of historical fact it didn't. Their balance sheet was an excel sheet with random entries like "fiat@: $8B".

(I don't trust any entities in the crypto space, but just for the record)

Re:Crypto.com Will Delist Tether in Canada by davidcbc on Tuesday January 10, 2023 @11:07PM (#34334909)
Weird how they said they were going to release monthly attestations through them and then did exactly one 4 months ago, and then in December BDO said they were going to stop dealing with crypto companies.

Oh well, probably nothing!

Re:Crypto.com Will Delist Tether in Canada by nl on Wednesday January 11, 2023 @01:18AM (#34335631)
> they were going to release monthly attestations

Did they say this? I thought it was quarterly (same as what Circle does with USDC)

> in December BDO said they were going to stop dealing with crypto companies.

Yeah who would blame them?

Re:Crypto.com Will Delist Tether in Canada by yreg on Tuesday January 10, 2023 @09:53PM (#34334503)
Can someone explain to me how did they manage to mess it up?

Issuing stable coin seems like an easy business on paper. You collect $$$, mint coins, collect interest on those $$$ in a bank and that's your profit. Does everyone become greedy and lose the treasury in gambling instead, or what?

Re:Crypto.com Will Delist Tether in Canada by tylerhou on Tuesday January 10, 2023 @10:00PM (#34334533)
Because your execs are affiliated with other companies and suddenly those other companies lack liquidity and need a loan. If you’re Tether, that other company is Bitfinex. If you’re FTX, that other company is Alameda.

If the other company makes good use of the loan and recovers to pay the original company back — great, you still have enough assets to cover your deposits. That may be what happened with Bitfinex. On the other hand, the other company might go tits up. Now the first company has no money to cover deposits, declares bankruptcy, and if all is right in the world the execs see some punishment.

Re:Crypto.com Will Delist Tether in Canada by MuffinFlavored on Tuesday January 10, 2023 @10:06PM (#34334575)
> Can someone explain to me how did they manage to mess it up?

Ideas: Greed, incompetence, a combination of the two.

Just guesses out of thin air: Collect $1b, don't just keep $1b sitting around in low-risk instruments 1:1. Take $200m for yourself. Try to turn it into $1.2b through risky investments.

Re:Crypto.com Will Delist Tether in Canada by JumpCrisscross on Tuesday January 10, 2023 @09:55PM (#34334511)
> stable coin seems like an easy business on paper

For one, finding a bank that will hold your money will be tough. They’re taking on significant liability, for the AML officer, personal criminal liability.

Re:Crypto.com Will Delist Tether in Canada by yreg on Tuesday January 10, 2023 @10:04PM (#34334555)
Ok, but they could still do some wealth management solution that's practically risk free. With the amount of deposits they don't even need to beat inflation to turn significant profit.
Re:Crypto.com Will Delist Tether in Canada by JumpCrisscross on Tuesday January 10, 2023 @10:06PM (#34334572)
> they could still do some wealth management solution that's practically risk free

Mechanically, what does this mean? When someone buys Tether from you, to which bank account do you have them wire the money? By the way, your suggestion is a reasonable leap. But it still involves handling U.S. dollars, and now you've added a new regulated area (wealth management).

It's easy to imagine the transgressions starting small. Say you have someone ready to wire you $100mm. You don't yet have a bank account, but you're working on it. Do you tell them to pound sand? Or do you temporarily use a side account, to hold the funds until the main one is ready?

Re:Crypto.com Will Delist Tether in Canada by stickfigure on Tuesday January 10, 2023 @10:29PM (#34334702)
How about something like "You buy US treasury bonds, then give those bonds to us in exchange for xyzcoin"? Likewise redemptions always paid in treasury bonds?

I'm not very familiar with how treasuries get bought/sold/transferred between parties. But they seem pretty cash-equivalent, Uncle Sam will sell as much as you want, and your profit margin is baked into it.

Re:Crypto.com Will Delist Tether in Canada by JumpCrisscross on Tuesday January 10, 2023 @11:18PM (#34334958)
> Likewise redemptions always paid in treasury bonds?

This is better! But a couple issues. One, this means the U.S. Treasury has an open book into your in and outflows. Not sure that's Tether's vibe. Two, you've limited yourself to people who can transfer Treasuries. Given Tether doesn't provide consumer redemption, this isn't a huge issue. But transferring Treasuries takes more financial savvy than wiring cash, and that savvy is likely to ask for their interest (as is common in collateral arrangements).

Re:Crypto.com Will Delist Tether in Canada by yreg on Tuesday January 10, 2023 @10:10PM (#34334599)
How is this issue relevant to keeping vs. losing the treasury funds?
Re:Crypto.com Will Delist Tether in Canada by JumpCrisscross on Tuesday January 10, 2023 @10:15PM (#34334630)
> How is this issue relevant to keeping vs. losing the treasury funds?

It's relevant to the difficulty of launching and operating a U.S. dollar stablecoin.

Re:Crypto.com Will Delist Tether in Canada by yreg on Wednesday January 11, 2023 @06:32AM (#34337338)
Fine, operating a stable coin is not trivial.

What I meant by saying 'it seems easy on paper' is that the need to be profitable shouldn't force you to make decisions which eventually lead your treasury to not being valuable enough to back the minted coins.

Also: Perhaps I don't understand how tether works, but I don't see why they need to be liable for holding customer funds. Why do they need a deposit/withdrawal process at all? Can't they just do the following?

IF USDT on open markets is <$1 THEN buy coins and burn them

IF USDT on open markets is >$1 THEN mint coins and sell them

And then they can do whatever they want with the treasury, no? Store it in banks or buy US treasury bonds, etc. Just don't lose it.

Re:Crypto.com Will Delist Tether in Canada by MereInterest on Tuesday January 10, 2023 @10:42PM (#34334771)
Because at that point, they are a bank. Nothing fancier, nothing further, a bank. They aren't going to be a better bank than the bank at which they deposit the real money, so what do they do instead? Just say that they're totally not a bank, not at all, and that's why they don't need to do any of the fancy paperwork or background checks or meet minimum reserve requirements, because those are things that banks are required to do, and they're definitely not a "bank".

So now there's a business where the only way to make money is to break the regulations that exist to stop banks from doing exactly what they're doing. It's in the cryptocurrency environment, where the entire culture is made up of scammers, chumps, and chumps who aspire to be scammers. And in that environment, there's a big pile of money that could be transferred out without any oversight at all.

At that point, it isn't just that people "become greedy", but that every single aspect of the situation is aligned to select greedy people and create a situation that rewards theft.

Re:Crypto.com Will Delist Tether in Canada by chii on Tuesday January 10, 2023 @11:20PM (#34334965)
> So now there's a business where the only way to make money is to break the regulations that exist to stop banks from doing exactly what they're doing

so it worked for uber & AirBNB, i'm sure these companies doing this are asking why not for them?

Re:Crypto.com Will Delist Tether in Canada by ravel-bar-foo on Tuesday January 10, 2023 @11:40PM (#34335064)
Hotels are locally regulated, with side effects for maybe one town if a few go backrupt. This gives nationwide startups leeway to out-innovate regulators. Banks can have a much larger reach if they fail, and so are federally regulated. This prevents the same from happening. There are no startups seeking to out-innovate the FAA, for example.
Re:Crypto.com Will Delist Tether in Canada by bushbaba on Tuesday January 10, 2023 @10:51PM (#34334825)
Where do you suggest they park all that USD $$$. Banks wont touch them. You can't just buy Treasuries, as that requires having banks. Even in a bank such a high balance is not FDIC insured, so what if there's theft/fraud/etc. Its not as trivial as it sounds, and eventually you'll end up needing to create what amounts to a bank.
Re:Crypto.com Will Delist Tether in Canada by yreg on Wednesday January 11, 2023 @06:37AM (#34337384)
So what does Tether do if it doesn't use banks?
Re:Crypto.com Will Delist Tether in Canada by voytec on Tuesday January 10, 2023 @11:49PM (#34335115)
> Can someone explain to me how did they manage to mess it up?

You're assuming an intent to make (all) customers whole.

In Ponzi Scheme you collect $$$, mint coins or forge other confirmation, move money to Panama or spend it and when asked to pay out, you use other investors money. The only reason for making some customers whole is to keep the scheme going.

The problem for Ponzi operator starts when too many victims want they money back and there is no big enough source of it to cover payouts.