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Re:America needs carpenters and plumbers. Try telling that t... by Avshalom on Thursday January 05, 2023 @02:45PM (#34265450)
>there is a finite end to the career

this actually brings to mind something else:

I think the idea of a career is dead for a lot of the 40 and under set. The idea that you'll have the same job for decades is just nonsense so any job that feels too specific also feels like a it'll bite you in the ass in 5 years.

Re:America needs carpenters and plumbers. Try telling that t... by falcolas on Thursday January 05, 2023 @02:50PM (#34265511)
A good point. I think it's even dead for the over 40 crowd, as they try and slide into a new career which they can work part time and make a living on. Given how questionable retirement as a reality is these days.
Re:America needs carpenters and plumbers. Try telling that t... by ghaff on Thursday January 05, 2023 @03:32PM (#34266123)
In general, reasonably lucrative part-time work for someone coming from a professional role is tricky. And even more so if you really want to have fairly fine-grained control and both weekly workload and longer vacations. Well-paying work that lets you just pick and choose something here and there and then take a month off if you feel like it are pretty uncommon.
Re:America needs carpenters and plumbers. Try telling that t... by falcolas on Thursday January 05, 2023 @03:54PM (#34266393)
You're 100% not wrong. I think in many cases through it's supplementing insufficient retirement funds, so even a low skill low wage part time job (making/selling art, garden fruits/vegetables, foods, etc) may be sufficient to provide enough runway for existing retirement funds.
Re:America needs carpenters and plumbers. Try telling that t... by ghaff on Thursday January 05, 2023 @04:12PM (#34266666)
Absolutely. And some people also seem to like that some of these jobs provide human interaction. Some of my private car drivers seem in this category.

I'm more talking about situations where it's not mostly for the money but rather continuing the things people have enjoyed doing professionally without doing it full-time and without most of the downsides.

Re:America needs carpenters and plumbers. Try telling that t... by gspencley on Thursday January 05, 2023 @04:25PM (#34266851)
> I think the idea of a career is dead for a lot of the 40 and under set. The idea that you'll have the same job for decades is just nonsense

We're probably just nit-picking over definitions but a career, in my opinion, is not "having the same job for decades." A career is a decision to specialize in a particular craft, trade or profession. The opposite of a career is someone who takes odd jobs. Hospitality one day, transportation the next, might dabble in manufacturing. These jobs pay the bills, and there's nothing wrong with "just" doing that, but they are disconnected jobs; not a career.

I consider myself to have a career in software engineering but I have had multiple "jobs" over the decades that have contributed to that career. The career is the knowledge, the experience, the speciality, the reputation, the time spent focusing... all accumulated over my time developing that career. A career could be made by having a single job lasting from graduation until retirement, or it could be a handful of jobs that put to practice and develop the same skillset and knowledge.

Re:America needs carpenters and plumbers. Try telling that t... by Avshalom on Thursday January 05, 2023 @04:46PM (#34267203)
>> We're probably just nit-picking over definitions but a career

No, that's fair. Like "carpenter" and "programmer" are both very broad professions of course. I think there's something about the way various industries get hit by down turns more or less visibly (like when construction goes down it feels like it's everybody, and so every framer, every concrete layer) that creates an (often false to be sure) sense of narrowness.

But also Plumber, Electrician, Carpenter, etc. are very broad trades and even though articles get written using those words because everyone knows what they do, the articles are often really talking about the lack of elevator technicians, crane operators, industrial HVAC, PLC programmers, train conductors, air traffic controllers those more niche trades. A lot of machine operators end up so niche that their current company is the only one in a state that could employ them. My sister makes M&Ms, other than company policies about like sanitation she'd be no better than a new hire on the Twix line.

Re:America needs carpenters and plumbers. Try telling that t... by chx on Thursday January 05, 2023 @06:26PM (#34268487)
> the lack of elevator technicians, crane operators, industrial HVAC, PLC programmers, train conductors, air traffic controllers

Blame Reagan. Seriously. I am not joking. Blame Reagan. These need to be union jobs. These used to be union jobs.

For a more nuanced history read https://wwnorton.com/books/Invisible-Hands/

Re:America needs carpenters and plumbers. Try telling that t... by Karrot_Kream on Thursday January 05, 2023 @07:54PM (#34269439)
Is the argument here that unions are needed to guarantee minimum pay and benefits for these highly specialized jobs so that they feel safe enough to specialize? Wouldn't that depress effective wages for these techs and make the jobs as appealing as less skilled labor?
Re:America needs carpenters and plumbers. Try telling that t... by actionfromafar on Thursday January 05, 2023 @08:38PM (#34269813)
Some stuff still needs to be done, by code (which should be enforced) or by that people want basic services like electricity to actually exist.
Re:America needs carpenters and plumbers. Try telling that t... by Karrot_Kream on Thursday January 05, 2023 @08:46PM (#34269883)
I'm not saying the trades should be unregulated. I think OSHA is an almost unparalleled good. I've just generally thought of the benefits of unionization for skilled trades to lie in the educational and reputational benefits of the union rather than the security aspect of one. Unions for unskilled labor would work differently. My thought, at least.
Re:America needs carpenters and plumbers. Try telling that t... by chx on Thursday January 05, 2023 @08:31PM (#34269766)
I am unable to follow your logic from the first sentence to the second please elaborate.
Re:America needs carpenters and plumbers. Try telling that t... by Karrot_Kream on Thursday January 05, 2023 @08:45PM (#34269868)
The way you guarantee job stability would probably be to pay union members a salary even when they're temporarily not needed right? Then you pay this salary out using union dues. Union dues end up garnishing take-home wages which removes the incentive to specialize.

^ That was how I was imagining it. Am I wrong in thinking this way? Or is the argument that the urge to specialize is independent of wage?

Re:America needs carpenters and plumbers. Try telling that t... by chx on Thursday January 05, 2023 @11:02PM (#34270813)
A union negotiates salaries and work conditions both. Even with union dues your salary will be higher and work conditions so much better.

Let's look at ATC as an example:

https://www.bls.gov/ooh/transportation-and-material-moving/a...

> Their work can be stressful because maximum concentration is required at all times. Night, weekend, and rotating shifts are common.

Well, maybe there could be better agreements than rotating shifts on a very stressful job, don't you think so?

Re:America needs carpenters and plumbers. Try telling that t... by Karrot_Kream on Friday January 06, 2023 @04:49AM (#34272866)
I'm not talking about a generic "unions are good" argument. I know why unions exist, the history behind them throughout much of the West, their ties to worker parties and socialism etc. I'm specifically wondering what about unionizing (or in this case, re-unionizing) makes it more palatable for these highly specialized roles to exist. Is your argument then that working conditions for folks like HVAC techs are poor enough that unions are necessary to negotiate for better working conditions before people want to become HVAC techs?

Generally, the more specialized labor is, the higher wage and benefits they can demand in a capitalist labor market. Supply and demand. For less skilled labor like general electricians I can understand the role of the union in negotiating for wages, benefits, and safety standards. For highly skilled labor like an HVAC tech, I don't see it.

Re:America needs carpenters and plumbers. Try telling that t... by chx on Sunday January 08, 2023 @07:01AM (#34298369)
You seriously want me to dig up the stories on how everyone is mistreated? I already did for ATC. You can do your research for the rest. I am reasonable sure every worker in the US is mistreated.
Re:America needs carpenters and plumbers. Try telling that t... by Cthulhu_ on Friday January 06, 2023 @04:23AM (#34272689)
It's because sticking with the same job is either not rewarding - you're a number, not a valued employee in a lot of jobs - or not feasible.

Back in the day you could live a comfortable life off of your 40-odd year job, nowadays the advice given is to change jobs every few years because the increase in wage will outweigh any raises at your current job. Cost of living is going up faster than annual wage increases. Minimum wage in the US hasn't been updated since the 2000's, and if you do get paid minimum wage, it's your employer saying "I'd pay you less if I was allowed to". But a lot of wages will be based on minimum wage, so if that stagnates, so will other wages.