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Re:What a $1M Retirement Looks Like in America by toomuchtodo on Tuesday December 27, 2022 @02:21PM (#34152601)
It's a lengthy discussion topic to say the least. High level, pension coverage and associated healthcare plans have declined over the decades, 401ks (they were initially designed as a tax shelter for the wealthy) were parroted as the solution when they weren’t, and with the healthcare arrangement in the US, what might have been sustainable previously no longer is. Hence, people bouncing from an extraction economy to enjoy higher standard of living during the last chapter of their life (because it ain’t getting fixed in the US in a timeframe that matters to them).

Similar to college costs, the amount of total capital required to retire comfortably is accelerating away (due to underlying cost inflation, compressed future capital market returns, and longer expected lifetimes) from the capability of the mean worker to accomplish the necessary level of wealth accumulation during a work lifetime. Very few levers to pull besides earning more or finding somewhere to live that costs less.

Re:What a $1M Retirement Looks Like in America by antisthenes on Tuesday December 27, 2022 @02:52PM (#34152954)
This is all perfectly fine.

The wealthy years of the 20th century (driven by ludicrous amounts of fossil fuel exploitation) are an incredible anomaly in human history anyway. We're just reverting back to the mean when the vast majority of people never retired. It was good enough not to die of hunger.

This is going to continue until we start decoupling more of the economy from fossil fuels.

Re:What a $1M Retirement Looks Like in America by klipklop on Tuesday December 27, 2022 @07:55PM (#34156110)
This is a super narrow pessimistic viewpoint that is rife with agenda pushing. We do not know if the wealthy years of the 20th century are over yet. Neo-feudalism is possible, but unlikely to be the same conditions as the middle-ages standard of work until you drop dead.

Not every single problem in society is fixed by getting off fossil fuels. "Decoupling" the economy from fossil fuels will not be a magic solution in this case.

Re:What a $1M Retirement Looks Like in America by maxerickson on Tuesday December 27, 2022 @08:50PM (#34156552)
So the wealthy are sheltering a modest value every year in their 401k?

(the contribution limit this year is ~$20,000, which hey, good for people that can set that much earned income aside, but I'm not sure they are "the wealthy" that you mean. Even the considerably higher overall contribution limit for catchup contributions doesn't seem like something "the wealthy" would be worried about for tax sheltering)

Re:What a $1M Retirement Looks Like in America by maxerickson on Tuesday December 27, 2022 @09:10PM (#34156691)
Okay, do I need to read through all that and find out how your definition of "the wealthy" aligns with the contribution limits?

Roths aren't even vaguely related to the origin of 401ks, so I guess no need to look at those.

Re:What a $1M Retirement Looks Like in America by toomuchtodo on Tuesday December 27, 2022 @09:11PM (#34156707)
Whether you read them is up to whether you value citations for my thesis. I have no preference either way, as nothing material will result from me attempting to prove the thesis in this thread. I hope the links are helpful to whomever encounters the thread in the future.

If I didn't believe my thesis was on a solid foundation of facts, I wouldn't have asserted it.

Re:What a $1M Retirement Looks Like in America by maxerickson on Tuesday December 27, 2022 @09:16PM (#34156755)
Whether you read them is up to whether you value citations for my thesis. I have no preference either way, as nothing material will result from me attempting to prove the thesis in this thread. I hope the links are helpful to whomever encounters the thread in the future.

If I didn't believe my thesis was on a solid foundation of facts, I wouldn't have asserted it.

401ks were absolutely initially designed as a tax shelter (a way to defer taxes on income). It may have been a "loophole" at the beginning, but regulation and legislation quickly embraced it.

My contention is that a tax shelter that is subject to relatively modest contribution limits was not initially designed for the wealthy.

Defined benefit plans are great for the recipients, but we have also sort of proved that we are terrible at properly funding them. Making the future pay for present day promises isn't likely to be sustainable.

Re:What a $1M Retirement Looks Like in America by toomuchtodo on Tuesday December 27, 2022 @09:19PM (#34156777)
I believe we’ve equally proven that defined contribution plans are fairly worthless compared to pensions, when 50% of retirees have no retirement savings and the median balance of these accounts is in the low five figures, no? Workers are simply not lucky enough (to have the financial means), nor financially savvy enough, to manage this themselves across a lifetime.

From my last link:

> The median value of 401(k)-style accounts was $30,000 and the median IRA or Keogh value was $30,820 — not statistically different.

> The median total amount employees contributed in 2020 to their own IRA or Keogh account was $2,514. The median amount they contributed to their 401(k)-style accounts ($3,599) and pension plans ($3,257) was slightly higher. Future research will examine employer contributions in combination with employee contributions.

Come on, based on available data this isn’t a functioning asset accumulation system for worker retirement, it’s theater to keep the hoax going. Outliers are going to trot out their six and seven figure account balances, but they are just that: outliers.

Re:What a $1M Retirement Looks Like in America by maxerickson on Tuesday December 27, 2022 @09:40PM (#34156915)
It's not like every job came with a pension before 401ks (apparently it peaked at about 50%). And partially vested pensions have their own issues (deferring compensation and then not receiving it).

I'm not actually arguing that 401ks are a solution to retirement though. I'm arguing that they weren't initially designed as a tax shelter for the wealthy.

I'm not sure what an improved system looks like. Probably something like a pension where the employer is not allowed to be the entity responsible for paying out the benefit (so that present day promises can't be funded with future contributions).

Re:What a $1M Retirement Looks Like in America by maribi on Thursday December 29, 2022 @06:25AM (#34171581)
I have an Israeli federal pension, but there was a problem with getting it, helped me here https://zashita.co.il/ , had to take care of all the bureaucratic problems, and then recalculate the pension, so now I get almost the same salary as before, but now on the due rest
Re:What a $1M Retirement Looks Like in America by gfarah on Tuesday December 27, 2022 @10:11PM (#34157090)
Around 15% of my apartment building here in Medellín, Colombia are retirees that moved from the US. Cost of living being 1/5 of of the US I would be doing the same.