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Re:Cryptopathic: The situation at LastPass may be worse than... by pigsty on Friday December 23, 2022 @08:37PM (#34112907)
I feel like there should be a law of the internet for this. The more a company asserts that their data is secure and encrypted and you should trust them, the more likely it is to leak and be proven to be massively vulnerable.

It’s fine to store your passwords online for convenience, but as a user, it’s important to accept that it’s no longer your private password and will, at some point, leak.

Re:Cryptopathic: The situation at LastPass may be worse than... by djbusby on Friday December 23, 2022 @08:44PM (#34112947)
PigSty's Razor
Re:Cryptopathic: The situation at LastPass may be worse than... by jraph on Friday December 23, 2022 @09:40PM (#34113296)
I propose the "LastPass Law"
Re:Cryptopathic: The situation at LastPass may be worse than... by qzw on Saturday December 24, 2022 @02:08AM (#34114729)
They’re not worthy of having any law named for them, even a negative one. Really wish there was a Software Hall of Shame where they can go rest in infamy.
Re:Cryptopathic: The situation at LastPass may be worse than... by 2bluesc on Friday December 23, 2022 @08:51PM (#34113010)
I suppose this is how such things start.
Re:Cryptopathic: The situation at LastPass may be worse than... by fpoling on Friday December 23, 2022 @08:56PM (#34113033)
It all depends on how the data are encrypted. With a sensible design capturing the encrypted storage will only reveal the number of encrypted records, rough estimates on their size, and time stamps.
Re:Cryptopathic: The situation at LastPass may be worse than... by accrual on Saturday December 24, 2022 @12:24AM (#34114253)
Ideally it would be an opaque blob with no information about the number of records or their size, just the total size and maybe a last modified or accessed time.
Re:Cryptopathic: The situation at LastPass may be worse than... by fpoling on Saturday December 24, 2022 @02:13AM (#34114745)
Password managers typically offer to store images like document scans. Without per record encryption one needs to send the whole encrypted blob on each modification.
Re:Cryptopathic: The situation at LastPass may be worse than... by WesolyKubeczek on Saturday December 24, 2022 @07:59AM (#34116395)
Not necessarily. You can have a write-ahead log which also consists of opaque blobs and which other devices can pull and reconcile on their own. At some point, a whole reconciled version is uploaded.
Re:Cryptopathic: The situation at LastPass may be worse than... by jraph on Friday December 23, 2022 @09:33PM (#34113258)
> The more a company asserts that their data is secure and encrypted and you should trust them, the more likely it is to leak and be proven to be massively vulnerable.

That's a consequence of the Murphy's law.

You phrased it perfectly for it to have its place at https://courtois.cc/murphy/murphy.html which is full of this kind of stuff. If you read French you might enjoy it.

Re:Cryptopathic: The situation at LastPass may be worse than... by technion on Friday December 23, 2022 @10:05PM (#34113477)
I definitely feel the opposing law works. When I see a project with a massive disclaimer about "this crypto is not audited, I'm a noob never deploy this anywhere" I'm likely to see better crypto than most of the commercial products I work with, including ones with sales people that talk about unbreakable crypto.
Re:Cryptopathic: The situation at LastPass may be worse than... by wepple on Friday December 23, 2022 @11:54PM (#34114109)
And likewise “military grade encryption” usually means “win2k Visual Basic backend”
Re:Cryptopathic: The situation at LastPass may be worse than... by wlesieutre on Saturday December 24, 2022 @12:49AM (#34114363)
Your data is automatically translated into Navajo
Re:Cryptopathic: The situation at LastPass may be worse than... by FooHentai on Saturday December 24, 2022 @01:26AM (#34114536)
That’s a great reference, thank you for the laugh.
Re:Cryptopathic: The situation at LastPass may be worse than... by kodah on Saturday December 24, 2022 @01:46AM (#34114629)
That's a silly term for that. Commercial businesses have the same access to NIST that the military does. Their guidance is even free!

Military grade when we're talking about a screw is a little different. It means that the screw is made and QC'd to a very specific spec/standard.

My next question might be, "Where can I find you on the FedRamp approved list?". To which, I'm sure they'd respond that anything outside the algorithm is not military grade, which is what most attackers will exploit in the end.

Re:Cryptopathic: The situation at LastPass may be worse than... by whatshisface on Saturday December 24, 2022 @03:53AM (#34115160)
In electronics military grade means it works over a wide temperature range. That's about it.
Re:Cryptopathic: The situation at LastPass may be worse than... by raverbashing on Saturday December 24, 2022 @08:21AM (#34116549)
There's a bit of actual truth in this

FIPS certified systems can actually be less secure (by design) than non-certified ones

Re:Cryptopathic: The situation at LastPass may be worse than... by userbinator on Saturday December 24, 2022 @05:28AM (#34115614)
Humility is underrated.
Re:Cryptopathic: The situation at LastPass may be worse than... by goku12 on Saturday December 24, 2022 @05:43AM (#34115683)
> When I see a project with a massive disclaimer about "this crypto is not audited, I'm a noob never deploy this anywhere" I'm likely to see better crypto than most of the commercial products I work with, including ones with sales people that talk about unbreakable crypto.

I'm working on an opensource project for Linux users that needs crypto. Needless to say, I'm not an expert in that domain. I was planning to ask experts for help in reviewing the crypto. Your statement makes me slightly nervous. What is the standard procedure to ensure crypto safety in a software project?

Re:Cryptopathic: The situation at LastPass may be worse than... by Gasp0de on Saturday December 24, 2022 @06:41AM (#34115979)
Use available and widely used libraries for the low level crypto parts (e.g. don't code RSA or key generation on your own). Apart from that, get audits if you have the means but I guess using libraries like openssl should be enough for most open source projects.
Re:Cryptopathic: The situation at LastPass may be worse than... by goku12 on Sunday December 25, 2022 @01:21AM (#34124909)
> Use available and widely used libraries for the low level crypto parts (e.g. don't code RSA or key generation on your own).

Yes. That's the plan. I'm using Rust's crypto libraries. All the code in the application are basically just calls to those libs.

> Apart from that, get audits if you have the means

Unfortunately no. But I got the plan from a crypto forum. I will be seeking their validation when it's done.

Re:Cryptopathic: The situation at LastPass may be worse than... by g_p on Saturday December 24, 2022 @07:48AM (#34116333)
Understand (before you start writing code) the basic security properties that you want to deliver through use of cryptography. This is usually where most implementers fall over (including the big commercial products).

To give a couple of specific (but non-exhaustive) examples, generally framed in terms of password managers:

- A password manager should protect the identity of the sites the user has saved, the content of the username and password field, and any associated notes. (That's fairly straightforward, most people are likely to agree on this). But what about integrity? Should you use an authenticated cipher mode like GCM? What will you do if the authentication tag fails verification?

- The password should be encrypted such that if a password is re-used across websites, it is not discernable from the ciphertext that this is the case. (Fewer people will think about this, but some will... Using AES in ECB mode isn't enough to prevent this! Lastpass appear to have done this in the early days).

- The key used to encrypt each ciphertext should probably be unique, to reduce any potential impacts of weaknesses in ciphers or cipher modes. Each cipher should use a unique per-instance instantiation as well (i.e. IV, GCM tag, etc.) How do you store and derive these passwords though? That will take you into key derivation functions, and password-based ones, like scrypt/bcrypt/argon2. These can derive a crypto key from a user password. You can then use that key as input to a KDF (with a per-entry salt) to derive the actual AES key used for each entry.

- If you're designing a wire protocol, what properties do you seek? Replay resistance? How do you prevent session resumption type attacks? (don't design a new wire protocol, use something robust like modern TLS!)

98+% of the time, at least in my experience, people who mess up crypto don't understand what goal they are seeking to achieve by using the cryptography, and haven't threat modelled it. Usually this is because regular devs are being asked by "BigCorp" to add "AES 256 crypto" to meet a client tick-box requirement. I would say if you understand how people are likely to seek to break/compromise what you are building, you can then start to design a solution. Expect to read 10x more articles than you expect, and before you start writing any code though.

And don't focus too much on getting an expert to review the code only - you ideally want to get some input reviewing the concept, architecture, understanding of the threat model, and the security properties you want to deliver. I've blown huge holes in crypto systems before, as people did things "nearly" right, but didn't understand the wider application, so were exposing/leaking the key elsewhere etc.

Re:Cryptopathic: The situation at LastPass may be worse than... by waboremo on Friday December 23, 2022 @11:10PM (#34113892)
That assertion should be accepted even if you store your password offline.
Re:Cryptopathic: The situation at LastPass may be worse than... by noduerme on Saturday December 24, 2022 @12:11AM (#34114197)
How hard is it to store encrypted data that needs a locally held master key to decrypt? Pick any industry... You'd have to be willfully ignorant or outright corrupt to fail your core business promise, wouldn't you?
Re:Cryptopathic: The situation at LastPass may be worse than... by quanticle on Saturday December 24, 2022 @02:03AM (#34114706)
The average user that LastPass caters to thinks that a "backup" is the reason they were late for work in the morning. LastPass doesn't want to be in a position where they're telling their users, "Sorry you're SOL," if their device breaks and they don't have a second copy of their locally-stored encryption key.
Re:Cryptopathic: The situation at LastPass may be worse than... by noduerme on Saturday December 24, 2022 @05:44AM (#34115687)
[edit] I guess that's true. I'm not sure who their users are, but obviously not people overly concerned about security. [/edit]

Just because I think it's funny - every time I visit my dad (who's in his 80s) he regales me with his startup ideas. "Why don't you build something that I can put on my glasses so when I lose them I can find them? Whoever invents that would be a billionaire." I say, "Yeah dad, they have that."

"Why don't they make it so I don't have to remember passwords for all these different websites? I could just have one password and it would remember it for everything."

I think I've explained at least a dozen times why I think third party trust is a bad idea; I've had to really refine it down to the level of explaining this to a six year old.

But the salient point here is that even my dad never signed up for LastPass. So who the fuck is signing up for LastPass?

Re:Cryptopathic: The situation at LastPass may be worse than... by riffraff on Saturday December 24, 2022 @07:19AM (#34116176)
Companies. It is to convenient to use a shared password manager to share passwords within a group of people or some such.

Also techies have been telling non-techies "use a password manager!" for years, and people fail to evaluate one solution or the other.

My brother in law (a non technical person) was telling my wife last year how good LastPass was for him!

Re:Cryptopathic: The situation at LastPass may be worse than... by smegger001 on Saturday December 24, 2022 @01:11AM (#34114468)
>It’s fine to store your passwords online for convenience, but as a user, it’s important to accept that it’s no longer your private password and will, at some point, leak.

ehh. I store my passwords online but its on a file I encrypted offline with strong password (over 20+ characters) and key. I use keepass which is a locally encrypted and stored password manger, and I store the DB on Dropbox and download it to any of my computers/devices were it is decrypted locally when needed. I don't trust password wallet services ass they all seem to want to do the enryption server side with a reset-able password which really means they have the master password not you, but my set up seems secure enough to me.

Re:Cryptopathic: The situation at LastPass may be worse than... by 12907835202 on Saturday December 24, 2022 @03:33AM (#34115088)
How does this work with mobile chrome/Firefox etc. Does it sync?
Re:Cryptopathic: The situation at LastPass may be worse than... by smegger001 on Saturday December 24, 2022 @04:27AM (#34115322)
there is a keepass compatable app on fdroid i use, and it can sync just by syncing the db over dropbox
Re:Cryptopathic: The situation at LastPass may be worse than... by xnickb on Saturday December 24, 2022 @04:41AM (#34115378)
I have a similar setup, except I use Syncthing. Works fine with Keepass2Android/KeepassXC on both Windows and Linux machines. Occasionally I might need to do some manual steps (a week ago windows stopped running Syncthing and that caused some conflicts down the road), but most of the time it just works.

If you have specific questions, feel free to ask.

Re:Cryptopathic: The situation at LastPass may be worse than... by konha on Saturday December 24, 2022 @03:37AM (#34115102)
> I don't trust password wallet services ass they all seem to want to do the enryption server side with a reset-able password which really means they have the master password not you

None of the popular password managers work this way.

Re:Cryptopathic: The situation at LastPass may be worse than... by milkshakes on Saturday December 24, 2022 @05:34AM (#34115648)
1password for teams works exactly this way

so does the family pack

Re:Cryptopathic: The situation at LastPass may be worse than... by konha on Saturday December 24, 2022 @05:51AM (#34115722)
So you’re saying 1Password for families / teams differs significantly from their zero knowledge architecture?

Have a look at [0] - recovery works without 1Password having the master password.

[0] https://1passwordstatic.com/files/security/1password-white-p...

Re:Cryptopathic: The situation at LastPass may be worse than... by milkshakes on Wednesday December 28, 2022 @11:11AM (#34162400)
If you read page 49 of the document you link:

> Recovery Groups One of the most powerful capabilities that a team administrator has is the power to assign members to the team’s Recovery Group. In most configurations the assignment is automatic and Owners, Organizers, and Administrators will automatically be made members of the Recovery Group. In 1Password Families there is no ability to separate the roles of Owner, Administrator, and Recovery Group member; they are all wrapped up as “Organizer.” With 1Password Teams Administrators are given more control, but not all of the underlying flexibility may be exposed to the user.17 17We discovered during our beta testing that it was difficult to make the distinction between Owners, Administrators, vault Managers, and Recovery Group members clear enough for those distinctions to be sufficiently useful. This document describes recovery in terms of the Recovery Group even when the group is not exposed to the Team administrator in those terms.

> Implicit sharing When a vault is created, a copy of the vault key is encrypted with the public key of the Recovery Group. The members of the Recovery Group are able to decrypt the private key of the Recovery Group. Thus from an exclusively cryptographic point of view the members of the Recovery Group have access to all of the vaults. Recovery Group members never have the ability to learn anyone’s account password, Secret Key, Account Unlock Key (AUK), or SRP-𝑥. Recovery is recovery of the vault keys; it is not recovery of account passwords nor Secret Keys.

Re:Cryptopathic: The situation at LastPass may be worse than... by konha on Friday December 30, 2022 @01:33PM (#34188204)
Exactly: 1Password doesn’t have the keys. Recovery works because the vaults are encrypted with the keys of everyone in the recovery group. No “server side” encryption instead of end-to-end.
Re:Cryptopathic: The situation at LastPass may be worse than... by Shorel on Saturday December 24, 2022 @05:32AM (#34115639)
No.

Security is the area where fast and fuzzy heuristics get you into problems.

Examine each option critically and reach independent conclusions.