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Re:Wild mammals are making a comeback in Europe thanks to co... by WastingMyTime89 on Tuesday December 20, 2022 @01:01PM (#34069654)
Controversial take but I absolutely don’t see the point of reintroductions. Ecosystems are dynamic equilibrium. Reintroductions are just a different kind of man-made arbitrary modification.

Loss of biodiversity is a good indicator that something wrong is happening but biodiversity in and of itself is not a particularly interesting aim. The mechanism at play in nature will ensure a return to diversity if things are left to themselves.

Re:Wild mammals are making a comeback in Europe thanks to co... by constGard on Tuesday December 20, 2022 @01:22PM (#34069957)
In some cases reintroduction can be positive because certain species were selectively hunted, the factors involved in habitat loss have been reversed, or the species might play an important role in habitat restoration.
Re:Wild mammals are making a comeback in Europe thanks to co... by nextaccountic on Tuesday December 20, 2022 @01:45PM (#34070335)
It may take thousands of years for the ecosystem to recover by itself. Human destruction of habitats is a faster mechanism, and will always win if we do nothing to revert it. Also, biodiversity is a good thing in itself.

There's nothing wrong with recovering ecosystem. The Amazon forest was man-made, for example. It doesn't make it any less important.

Re:Wild mammals are making a comeback in Europe thanks to co... by geysersam on Tuesday December 20, 2022 @03:29PM (#34072051)
> The Amazon forest was man-made

Was it?

Re:Wild mammals are making a comeback in Europe thanks to co... by shaboinkin on Tuesday December 20, 2022 @10:31PM (#34076311)
I raised my eyebrow at that comment and found [1] and [2] which mentions evidence of human influence in the region, though I can't watch that BBC doc in my region, the paper is pretty interesting in there appears to be some lost civilization buried under the trees. That paper is from 2003 so I'd imagine there's more up to date research somewhere out there. I'd consider the statement "man-made" to be massively exaggerated unless proven otherwise.

[1] https://www.bbc.co.uk/programmes/b0122njp [2] https://www.semanticscholar.org/paper/Amazonia-1492%3A-Prist...

Re:Wild mammals are making a comeback in Europe thanks to co... by Scarblac on Tuesday December 20, 2022 @01:45PM (#34070339)
> The mechanism at play in nature will ensure a return to diversity if things are left to themselves

Yes, but that takes hundreds of thousands of years, for mistakes we made on the order of a hundred years ago up to now.

And we need working ecosystems now or too many species will go extinct, then we are in danger too and it will become many millions of years before something similar is back.

Re:Wild mammals are making a comeback in Europe thanks to co... by advantager on Tuesday December 20, 2022 @02:06PM (#34070742)
Left to their own devices, wild mammals have to cross significant human barriers (roads, neighborhoods, fencing, etc.) to repopulate certain natural areas which they have been exterminated from.

Where I live in Southern Arizona, re-population efforts for bighorn sheep have been successful in the mountain ranges near cities (Tucson). Access to these ranges from nearby "naturally" populated areas (50+ mile distances) requires crossing the interstate, fenced in train tracks, ranches, and extensive urban development. Since their extermination from certain areas, this has not happened naturally (and is arguably not possible). I think similar arguments could be made for the Mexican Wolf population in the southwest.

I agree in principle that ecosystems will re-equilibrate on their own, but given the current state of human development certain areas would remain off-limits for various animals without human intervention, maybe leading to certain species or subspecies becoming extinct. I'm no wildlife biologist but would defer to one on this topic.

Re:Wild mammals are making a comeback in Europe thanks to co... by ajuc on Tuesday December 20, 2022 @02:28PM (#34071118)
European motorways (at least new ones) are built with bridges for animals. Like this:

https://www.crazynauka.pl/wp-content/uploads/2021/06/microso...

And that's in a country with 120 people per square kilometer compared to 36 people per square kilometer in US.

Matter of regulation.

Re:Wild mammals are making a comeback in Europe thanks to co... by jeffbee on Tuesday December 20, 2022 @05:34PM (#34073709)
America has those too, but they’re enormous and expensive because we’re dumb. https://www.smithsonianmag.com/smart-news/animals-are-using-...
Re:Wild mammals are making a comeback in Europe thanks to co... by lukas099 on Wednesday December 21, 2022 @01:33AM (#34077391)
I don't see how that is much more enormous or expensive than the European example above; care to explain?
Re:Wild mammals are making a comeback in Europe thanks to co... by justincormack on Tuesday December 20, 2022 @02:27PM (#34071091)
Same with reintroduction of beavers to the UK, it is an island they won’t get here (unlike some birds). We also need some predators for deer other than humans here.
Re:Wild mammals are making a comeback in Europe thanks to co... by anonymous_sorry on Tuesday December 20, 2022 @02:09PM (#34070786)
> The mechanism at play in nature will ensure a return to diversity if things are left to themselves.

In the long run. But in the long run, we are all dead. And considering the amount of time it takes for a new species to evolve, not only are we all dead, but so are the next hundred thousand generations of our offspring. This is a personal view, but to me the return to diversity in a few million years is pretty meaningless.

Biodiversity is a goal in itself, for several reasons.

Most selfishly, the greater variety of life, the more raw genetic material there is for humanity to put to use, and the more survival strategies there are for us to learn about. Things like enhancing crop yields, nutrition, and disease resistance. Food, medicines and medical research are just the most obvious practical benefits.

Again, a personal view, but to me diversity is also aesthetically pleasing. Diversity provides interest and a richness to life that combats monotony and boredom. I also find it pleasing to think I might leave a place more varied and interesting than I found it.

Increasing the range of a species, increases its resilience to extinction. That has to be balanced against any negative effects on other parts of the ecosystem (everthing has gotta eat...). Introducing a species to somewhere new has a chance of being quite harmful, but reintroducing a species to somewhere it recently became extinct much less so. It may perturb the new equilibrium (if a few decades is enough time for an equilibrium to establish), but is pretty unlikely to be harmful to biodiversity. It is more likely to be helpful. The recovery of pine martens in Ireland has helped the recovery of red squirrels, for example (admittedly at the bloody expense of the invasive grey).

Re:Wild mammals are making a comeback in Europe thanks to co... by maria2 on Tuesday December 20, 2022 @02:21PM (#34070987)
Wolf reintroductions to Yellowstone, for instance, totally changed the ecosystem for the better.

Animals evolved to keep each other in check. If you remove one animal, but not its prey, then the prey can cause an even greater loss of biodiversity by excessive proliferation. In the case of Yellowstone’s wolves, their absence allowed elk to proliferate. Elk then ate too much vegetarian, which prevented forests from developing. The lack of forest lead to a decline in song bird and beaver populations. The decline in beavers lead to a decline in dams, which removed key habitats for other animals.

To flip your question on its head: the reintroduction of wolves was clearly beneficial for Yellowstone. What is the argument against reintroducing the wolf, or reintroductions in general?

Re:Wild mammals are making a comeback in Europe thanks to co... by smm11 on Tuesday December 20, 2022 @02:38PM (#34071292)
Having been very, very close to this issue when wolves were re-introduced to Yellowstone, the vocal opposition to this was that a handful of ranchers near Yellowstone who are very much Welfare Queens didn't want to loose cows to wolves that were on the other side of the fence.
Re:Wild mammals are making a comeback in Europe thanks to co... by ticviking on Tuesday December 20, 2022 @02:57PM (#34071581)
Not sure its fair to call them "welfare queens" but no one likes to see their livelihood threatened.
Re:Wild mammals are making a comeback in Europe thanks to co... by pvaldes on Tuesday December 20, 2022 @03:37PM (#34072162)
If I remember correctly wolves returning to Yellowstone generated 5 million dollars each year to the area only by the increase in tourists. Plus environmental benefits
Re:Wild mammals are making a comeback in Europe thanks to co... by edgyquant on Tuesday December 20, 2022 @05:48PM (#34073926)
This has nothing to do with the livelihood of the farmers
Re:Wild mammals are making a comeback in Europe thanks to co... by pvaldes on Tuesday December 20, 2022 @06:22PM (#34074304)
Imagine that you are that farmer. To start, you can buy a lot of cows with five millions of dollars

Or your city could provide you with better services now that they have five extra millions each year. Better roads would allow you to move your cattle faster or to export your products better. So you lose some, but win some also.

Or maybe you will not need it, now that the new local restaurants opened want to buy your meat to feed the tourists. More competence and lower expenses to put your product in the market will allow you to sell your meat at a better price.

Tourists will want to buy souvenirs also. Maybe in stores owned by members of your family.

Your city will attract researchers. Science has a curious proven effect; each single researcher position creates tens of auxiliary jobs around to sustain their research.

In resume, the young adults in your city will have a range of new opportunities to settle, work and start a live project in their own city if they would desire so.

Or you can forget all of this and keep your cow

Be honest, do you really liked so much that stupid cow?

Re:Wild mammals are making a comeback in Europe thanks to co... by sweettea on Tuesday December 20, 2022 @08:32PM (#34075562)
Yes. The farmer chose to live way out there far from people, and would appreciate the dang tourists going away.
Re:Wild mammals are making a comeback in Europe thanks to co... by pvaldes on Wednesday December 21, 2022 @05:29AM (#34078894)
Not, what I'm saying is that in a society everybody must sacrifice something for the mutual benefit.

Wolves had proven again and again that produce more money that they remove. Had proven also that can save human lives reducing car collissions and that they positively protect agriculture and fixate water sources in the area.

Why should a few farmers force their will over the whole population and block thedevelopment of a local area?. Isn't this a democracy?. Who are this people to decide that their village can't receive tourism and that everybody in the area must be a farmer or migrate?

Environmental services aren't free. Some resources will need to be sacrified to keep the machine working, and in any case farmers can reduce their losses to an acceptable level by several traditional and well tested ways.

Re:Wild mammals are making a comeback in Europe thanks to co... by pvaldes on Wednesday December 21, 2022 @05:50AM (#34079013)
And about the "dang" tourists, we need to remember that US citizens have full rights to visit and enjoy public spaces and protected areas open to public. Granted by constitution.

Why? Because is their country also. Is --their-- land also.

They have exactly the same right to enjoy a well adjusted National park as any local

Re:Wild mammals are making a comeback in Europe thanks to co... by sweettea on Friday December 23, 2022 @02:56AM (#34103332)
Your initial argument was that farmers should want the development, "do you really like that stupid cow?" -- and my attempted point was that yes, the farmers do in fact like that stupid cow. All the benefits you propose of the increased tourism and 5 million dollars pale in many farmers' minds to the downside of having more tourists, who clog up the roads, complain about their farming practices, drive up land prices, and want to build developments. Farming is a lifestyle well suited to loners and cow farming in particular is well suited to very remote areas; thus added tourism, making it a less remote area, decreases the local farmer's reason for existing there.

To reply to your new point, an important part of democracy is the right of self-determination, and people get very upset when faraway majorities impose their wills despite the local majority disagreeing. Consider Catalonia, or other independence movements throughout history, or any number of instances of imperialism throughout history: should a national majority be able to force a local majority to give up their way of life / national independence / raison d'etre? That's how local residents who've been there for 20, 30, 60 years feel about outsiders coming in to diversify the economy or introduce wolves to eat their lambs -- why are the outsiders coming in and imposing their negatives on their apparently perfectly good way of life?

Re:Wild mammals are making a comeback in Europe thanks to co... by pvaldes on Friday December 23, 2022 @05:03AM (#34104089)
> an important part of democracy is the right of self-determination

You need to check again the definition of democracy. This self-determination fairy tale has been repeated a thousand times but is still false.

> should a national majority be able to force a local majority to give up their way of life / national independence / raison d'etre?

Hum, yeeees? This is exactly the point of having a central government making the laws for the entire nation

Re:Wild mammals are making a comeback in Europe thanks to co... by micro_cam on Wednesday December 21, 2022 @02:40AM (#34077776)
No one is talking about farmers at all. Farmers grow crops intensively on their own land.

Ranching is a very different activity which in the west usually involves a cheap grazing lease on thousands of acres of public land... it is the governments land and they balance the concerns of all stakeholders.

Re:Wild mammals are making a comeback in Europe thanks to co... by micro_cam on Wednesday December 21, 2022 @02:25AM (#34077665)
Welfare ranchers are ranchers who rely on cheap/subsidized grazing leases on federal land. It includes a shocking number of billionaires making big money off public land.
Re:Wild mammals are making a comeback in Europe thanks to co... by panick21_ on Wednesday December 21, 2022 @04:17AM (#34078377)
Yes and it happened when a guy simply decided to stop waiting for people to fight and simply gathered the money and bought the rights to the ranchers land.
Re:Wild mammals are making a comeback in Europe thanks to co... by swalling on Tuesday December 20, 2022 @05:34PM (#34073713)
This is a good example in particular because state and federal agencies have been extremely judicious when it comes to doing reintroductions since then.

In the rest of the West (CA, OR, WA, ID, MT) there have been basically zero wolf reintroductions recently. Wolf packs are spreading naturally back to their historical range, and agencies are instead focused on tracking populations and working with local communities to regulate hunting, protect the livelihoods of ranchers, etc.

Re:Wild mammals are making a comeback in Europe thanks to co... by micro_cam on Wednesday December 21, 2022 @02:32AM (#34077710)
It's much more than that even. Without the wolves the elk and deer graze along creeks destroying willows that shade the water leading to warmer water temps and fewer fish, more erosion and less water retention / flood control. This even impacts downstream farmers who take water out for irrigation.

Also the wolves keep mountain lions, coyotes and other predators in check (through competition and even predation) and wary. I suspect mountain lion encounters in California will go way down if the wolves ever come back.

Re:Wild mammals are making a comeback in Europe thanks to co... by mastersummoner on Tuesday December 20, 2022 @02:48PM (#34071438)
This is mentioned in other responses, but keep in mind that frequently, it's urban sprawl which endangered these animals in the first place.

We're not going to start closing up our cities to let animals come back. But we can take steps to make the environments around them more hospitable: bridges under highways, reserved areas for wildlife. Once these are in place, some reintroductions to kick-start the process makes more sense.

A lot of the animals being reintroduced were key parts of the ecosystem before they were eliminated in areas, and their absence can lead to unexpected imbalances. Reintroductions makes sense in this context. Or at least, introducing another animal which fills a similar niche.

Re:Wild mammals are making a comeback in Europe thanks to co... by burkaman on Tuesday December 20, 2022 @03:00PM (#34071640)
Maybe the most famous example: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Four_Pests_campaign

That is an extreme case, but sometimes the best way to correct a human-caused error is a human-caused solution. Nature will always find an equilibrium, but probably not an equilibrium that works well for us unless we nudge it. Reintroducing sparrows is clearly better than accepting the natural equilibrium of "locusts are everywhere and we can't grow food anymore".

Re:Wild mammals are making a comeback in Europe thanks to co... by WastingMyTime89 on Tuesday December 20, 2022 @05:21PM (#34073557)
Yes but that’s just another manipulation of an ecosystem to suit human activity. Fundamentally I remain unconvinced by most of the answers which boil down we want to reintroduce these species because it suits us from an aesthetic point of view or it fosters our own desire for a return to a state we judge more pristine or authentic. It’s basically the 19th century craze for zoo but adapted to modern taste.
Re:Wild mammals are making a comeback in Europe thanks to co... by anonymous_sorry on Wednesday December 21, 2022 @03:34AM (#34078125)
It's not really clear what your position is. Are you against any sort of human intervention? Or are you in favour of conservation but not restoration? (Try not to break stuff, but don't fix things we've broken). Or do you think it's justifiable to perturb ecosystems for economic reasons, but not to attempt to restore them for aesthetic reasons (car parks are Ok, but safari parks are not)?
Re:Wild mammals are making a comeback in Europe thanks to co... by WastingMyTime89 on Wednesday December 21, 2022 @05:49AM (#34079004)
I'm fine with conservation which is after all mostly stopping or limiting our harmful activities so they are sustainable. In a lot of way, it's the reverse of an intervention.

Meddling is not fixing things we have broken. It's just altering things again but in a way we find intellectually pleasing. I don't think trying to bring back ecosystems to their previous state as inherent value. I don't value nature for nature sake generally speaking. That's a rich urban dweller idea of morality. My issue with the human impact on Earth - climate change and what it does to the biosphere - is that it's unsustainable and will have a massive impact on our way of life if nothing is done.

I don't really care about wild mammals in Europe outside of their rise being a signal that other things are doing better.

Re:Wild mammals are making a comeback in Europe thanks to co... by anonymous_sorry on Wednesday December 21, 2022 @06:28AM (#34079268)
> I don't really care about wild mammals in Europe outside of their rise being a signal that other things are doing better.

OK, I am sympathetic to the suspicion that reintroductions of European mammals might just be a highly-visible gesture aimed at our own enjoyment of "nature", rather than fixing of conserving the fundamentals. But plenty of people do value nature for the sake of nature - so there's just a values difference there.

But attention-grabbing species do make progress visible, and visible indicators of system health are very useful. Larger animals and apex predators can also have larger impacts on an ecosystem, both positive and negative. For example, it is often argued that the reintroduction of wolves to Scotland would reduce the artificially high population of red deer, which in turn would help the recovery of forests and the rich ecosystem they support.

Re:Wild mammals are making a comeback in Europe thanks to co... by nine_k on Tuesday December 20, 2022 @03:08PM (#34071760)
Bad equilibria exist. If a better equilibrium that involved some currently gone animal us known to have existed and have been better, a reintroduction is an obvious step back to it.
Re:Wild mammals are making a comeback in Europe thanks to co... by geysersam on Tuesday December 20, 2022 @03:26PM (#34072017)
That takes a long time though... Not sure why we should wait for entirely new ecosystem pathways to develop over millions of years when we can just reintroduce key species extinct from the area.