News for hackers. Stuff that matters.
Re:Ask HN: Has anyone here turned around their life in their... by mancerayder on Monday December 19, 2022 @02:14PM (#34056278)
> You need to see a therapist

You should reword that. Otherwise how did humanity last this long? Psychotherapy is less than two centuries old. You should instead say something like, "One option is to see a therapist."

There are friends, elders, books, and a number of other ways to climb out of a mental rut. Traipsing "Psychology Today" for a therapist who will charge the insurance $150 for 40 minutes of a session, through Zoom no less, with your $40 co-pay after deductibles is such a commercial approach to what is fundamentally a human problem.

You know a very modern problem? You can't sit easily and talk with friends over a drink about your issues and have someone give you constructive advice. Everyone is remote, busy, prefers chatting online, and as a result a lot of loneliness manifests as "Oh my god, what am I doing with my life."

Re:Ask HN: Has anyone here turned around their life in their... by geoah on Monday December 19, 2022 @03:02PM (#34056882)
Humanity "survived" this long, many people did't make that cut, and many of those who did lived in misery, denial, or in the comfort of alcholor and/or drugs. IMO the cost of a couple of sessions to see if it works for you is better than not giving it a shot.

OP: Life can be good and does indeed gets better, if you are not in a good place, please do talk to someone, try to make a change, no matter how small, and stay strong.

Re:Ask HN: Has anyone here turned around their life in their... by fragmede on Monday December 19, 2022 @04:47PM (#34058232)
Also organized religion. After preparing sermons to give on Sunday, the church's pastor served as a therapist and did couples counseling for their local community. It's only recently that outside avenues have come to be formalized an relied upon in this way.
Re:Ask HN: Has anyone here turned around their life in their... by roughly on Monday December 19, 2022 @03:06PM (#34056915)
It's worth considering a therapist as similar to a medical intervention - yes, good eating, clean living, and regular exercise can keep you healthy, but after a very long time of not doing so, it's possible to find oneself too far down the road for that kind of change to sufficient on its own. Similarly, the help of friends, family, etc. can do wonders for one's mental health, but after a very long time of neglect, that can be beyond one's reach.

I say this as someone who rather successfully turned things around with a therapist - I simply did not have it in me to have those conversations with others and I didn't feel I had the relationships or support to do so (in retrospect I probably did, but that's the thing about mental health).

I don't think your diagnosis is wrong, particularly - there's a lot in the modern world that promotes alienation, feelings of low self esteem, and depression, but I think a lot of people find themselves at the bottom of the well before realizing quite what's happening and without the support structures to get out on their own.

(Edit just to note that, like physical health, mental health is not just the consequences of one's own actions - both genetic predispositions and unexpected life events can necessitate professional intervention by no fault of one's own. It's not what we're talking about, but just so nobody takes my post to be a psalm from the church of the self-sufficient.)

Re:Ask HN: Has anyone here turned around their life in their... by mancerayder on Monday December 19, 2022 @03:48PM (#34057462)
I don't disagree with anything you've said, and I don't think therapy is useless. Especially when one is past a point where there are few other options.

It's just a sad state of affairs that there are so few other options for people. I continue to pin the blame on the remote-first nature of society, which seems to make in person interaction secondary. It perpetuates loneliness which perpetuates mental health issues.

Re:Ask HN: Has anyone here turned around their life in their... by crtified on Monday December 19, 2022 @04:25PM (#34057933)
Jumping in here.

I suspect that the number of people who could benefit from quality therapy, greatly outnumbers the amount of quality therapists that exist in the world.

To the point where, I surmise, a vast majority of the world's population simply would not have meaningful access to it, due to location, finances, availability, introversion, etc.

So for me, it's not that "get therapy" is bad advice. Good thing is good. Therapy has proven techniques and results. But that doesn't help the majority of the world's population, who do not have access to the luxury of visits to high end trained professionals that only exist in suitably affluent settlements of certain countries.

Re:Ask HN: Has anyone here turned around their life in their... by roughly on Monday December 19, 2022 @07:58PM (#34060130)
Honestly, echoing some of mancerayder's sentiment here - I actually think there's a ton of mileage one can get from a not particularly extensively trained listening partner - I think there are cases where you genuinely need a highly qualified therapist, I think there are situations where an under-qualified individual can do a great deal of harm when dealing with someone with particular types of mental issues, but I think there's also a huge amount of therapy that can be done by someone a whole lot closer to an RN or a PA than an MD.

I also suspect that the broad lack of coverage for therapy and other kinds of mental care in most medical plans, as well as a "treatment/cure"-type paradigm when it IS covered ("we expect your 40 years of accumulated neurosis to be adequately addressed within 6 months, otherwise we're not going to pay anymore") is part of why this is out of reach for many people.

(I also suspect providing the population with broad access to mental health care would almost immediately pay for itself in terms of better physical health outcomes, improvements in the crime rate, and better economic outcomes, but that's the kind of second- and third-order thinking we're pretty notoriously bad at in this country, policy-wise)

Re:Ask HN: Has anyone here turned around their life in their... by gorffit on Tuesday December 20, 2022 @02:48AM (#34062864)
Therapy, and consequently the background and training of the therapist you see, is broadly subdivided into 2 different fields:

1) what I refer to as "psychiatric" therapy, with a specifically "medical" way of doing things. It's based on diagnosis and pathology, with a focus on treating the underlying causes of mental health problems. This typically amounts to chemical intervention. The provider will always be someone with a medical license, typically an M.D. or PsyD, although it can also be an RN or PA; someone who can prescribe drugs. While not always the case, talking with them is generally limited in scope to what is necessary to provide a diagnosis and appropriate medication management. It's normal to have appointments on a monthly basis initially, often stretching to a brief visit every 3 months as one's condition stabilizes. You will need to continue to see them for as long as you take medication (although you can sometimes convince a primary care physician to take over medication management once an effective treatment regimen is established).

2) what I refer to as "psychological" therapy, this is often in the form of talk therapy, and focuses more on cognitive understanding and behavioral modification, and can even be as simple as having someone listen to your shit, put it into a reasonable perspective, and provide emotional support or even just providing human interaction. Often the provider will have a Master's or Doctorate in psychology, which is NOT a medical degree. While some psychiatric doctors will also handle this type of therapy, it's much more often they'll refer you to someone who does this. It's quite common to see this person for an hour each week, but can be more or less often and may also include group therapy. They focus on teaching coping skills and can provide CBT and the like. Some people may continue to benefit from this therapy and go for years, others may stick around just until they establish the coping skills needed for their situation.

I'm probably over generalizing, but it's uncommon to start out not knowing what to expect at all, so if even one person reads this and benefits, it was worth me writing this long post on my phone at 2 a.m.

I also have a bit of a warning, with either type of therapy, it's not uncommon for patients to think they should see results pretty quickly, and when they don't they will assume it's not working and discontinue treatment or assume their therapist is inept and jump between several in short order. Imo, this is the worst thing someone can do, it may take a few months for medication to show results and more often than not the first few tries can fail to help, and it can literally take years to develop behavioral changes and coping skills to the point they show real benefit. People that give up on therapy too quickly can end up losing all faith in therapy for the rest of their life, and losing that kind of hope can even worsen their problems. I struggled from my late teens and all the way into my 30s before I really began to really feel like I hit an appropriate balance in daily life, and that isn't guaranteed. However now if I fall apart, I can put myself back together in a matter of days instead of wallowing for years.

Re:Ask HN: Has anyone here turned around their life in their... by rented_mule on Tuesday December 20, 2022 @03:57AM (#34063384)
> it's not uncommon for patients to think they should see results pretty quickly

For me it took a long, long time to see results. Like 2 sessions a week for 6 months... then see slight improvement... then a major regression after some difficult life events... then another year of thinking I wasn't seeing progress... then rapid improvement.

But, in retrospect, there was constant progress that I wasn't in the right frame of mind to observe. One of my issues was that I had spent decades learning to ignore my issues. It took a lot of progress on that issue before I could see most of the other progress I had made.

One thing I could observe quickly was just how bad things were. Almost every session was revealing new ways my thought patterns were making things hard when they didn't need to be. Not what to do about those thought patterns yet, but just that they were there. That convinced me to keep doing the hard work. I'm glad I did.

Re:Ask HN: Has anyone here turned around their life in their... by johnchristopher on Wednesday December 21, 2022 @02:06PM (#34084917)
> I don't disagree with anything you've said, and I don't think therapy is useless.

That's really not how you framed your comment.

> There are friends, elders, books, and a number of other ways to climb out of a mental rut.

> I continue to pin the blame on the remote-first nature of society, which seems to make in person interaction secondary.

Which doesn't concern the majority.

> It perpetuates loneliness which perpetuates mental health issues.

You seem to think mental health issues originates in loneliness. I can see how convenient that outlook is but it's nowhere that simple.

Re:Ask HN: Has anyone here turned around their life in their... by ineedausername on Monday December 19, 2022 @03:53PM (#34057534)
Spo on, in this isolated atomized western reality, the end result is posts like that and therapy suggestions as replies.
Re:Ask HN: Has anyone here turned around their life in their... by javajosh on Monday December 19, 2022 @03:54PM (#34057538)
Yes, too often "You need to see a therapist" is just a euphemism for "I don't want to listen to your problems."

This is an important data point and a general trend toward the cheapening of human relationships. Friendship means something very specific, and for a lot of people now it means only the superficial. Anything deeper than that is actively discouraged. I think of those surveys about friendship took this kind of friendship into account. The number of people without any friends at all would be outrageously high.

Re:Ask HN: Has anyone here turned around their life in their... by fragmede on Monday December 19, 2022 @04:38PM (#34058114)
Sometimes that might be true, but let's say you have the option to talk to two people about a problem. Person 1 is your friend that you've known all your life. They haven't gone to school for this and have plenty of problems of their own, half of which you know about, the other half, you're a part of, so they're biased and on their side, and not your side. Person 2 is a licensed therapist, has a literal master degree in the subject of dealing with people and their shit, has passed an ethics exam, and supervised experience program, and is on your side and won't judge you for your decisions. Who do you think would be able to help more?
Re:Ask HN: Has anyone here turned around their life in their... by javajosh on Monday December 19, 2022 @06:04PM (#34059100)
Person 1 is available now, and by just listening to you affirms that you matter, and that your problems are important, and the fact of your suffering matters to someone other than you. It may resonate with their own experience, maybe even something they didn't reveal because of shame or guilt, in which case both people are helped.

Person 2 is first of all, hard to find, unavailable, and extremely expensive. They don't know you, and in general aren't willing to share their own personal experiences with you. The interaction with Person 2 is transactional and does nothing to affirm the importance of your suffering to someone other than yourself.

It's a little like your suggesting to have sex with a prostitute because they're better at it. But that misses the point of what sex is even for. A lot of the time we just want to be assured that we matter, that our experience matters, and that we aren't alone. But yeah, a lot of people see it like you do, and I think that makes it a worse culture.

Re:Ask HN: Has anyone here turned around their life in their... by gorffit on Tuesday December 20, 2022 @03:17AM (#34063074)
You've known Person 1 all your life. From your description, they're definitely aware of this problem and you've probably already talked to them about it. The problem was not resolved. Expecting a different result while repeating the same action is the definition of insanity. It's time to try something different.
Re:Ask HN: Has anyone here turned around their life in their... by mancerayder on Monday December 19, 2022 @06:09PM (#34059151)
I can say that's been my experience as well. Friendships become a burden to people, they don't want to have to 'give' too much. At the same time it requires a closer tie to even go down that route.

And then also there are just less and less friends. In any friend circle there are some people that are just better to lean on. As you get older these people move away, get married, etc.

Re:Ask HN: Has anyone here turned around their life in their... by tomatotime on Tuesday December 20, 2022 @03:13AM (#34063047)
I disagree with the euphemism. I can both validate and suggest my friend seek therapeutic help. If my friend was bleeding out, can I help bandage him, can I drive him to the hospital, can I try to keep his spirits up and let him know everything will be alright (even when I don't know) - Yes, I can do those things. But it is the doctor with his specialized skills and training that can fix the torn organs under the skin.

I do agree that today's generations seem to be less deeply connected than older generations. Relationships take work and vulnerability, but today's distractions make everyone feel they are short on time and make us too absorbed with the perfection of the masks we wear. Its a shame, because deep friendships are truly something to be cherished.

"True friendship is a plant of slow growth, and must undergo and withstand the shocks of adversity, before it is entitled to the appellation." - George Washington

Re:Ask HN: Has anyone here turned around their life in their... by gernb on Monday December 19, 2022 @04:24PM (#34057917)
I recently looked into seeing a therapist for reasons similar to the OP's.

I tried lyra. All the wording and questions ask screamed to me "these are not my type of people". I'm not going to go into specifics but imagine you walked into a help conference and every table had energy stones, power of pyramids, astrology books, etc... If you're anything like me you'd walk out.

Once I made it past all that it recommended some therapists all of whom were white. The metro area I live in, 8 million people, is only 60% white in total and many areas are majority not white. I tried changing my location to an area known for being majority not white but it just gave me the same people.

It just got me wondering how much of therapy is a white culture thing because it seems statistically unlikely that of the 11 therapists it recommended, all 11 would be white if the demographics of the area say that only 60% of the population is white.

It was no different on BetterHelp.

Re:Ask HN: Has anyone here turned around their life in their... by oblio on Monday December 19, 2022 @04:37PM (#34058109)
> It just got me wondering how much of therapy is a white culture thing

I assume non-white majority countries also have psychologists/therapists, though.

Re:Ask HN: Has anyone here turned around their life in their... by gernb on Monday December 19, 2022 @05:11PM (#34058461)
It sounds like therapy is not common in many cultures

https://www.huffpost.com/entry/what-therapy-is-like-around-t...

Re:Ask HN: Has anyone here turned around their life in their... by oblio on Monday December 19, 2022 @05:21PM (#34058579)
It's not common anywhere. If anything, it's quite new and generally a rich man's thing.

Poor people generally avoid discussing issues in public and then discuss them with family.

But far more frequently violence and alcohol are the default "therapy".

Re:Ask HN: Has anyone here turned around their life in their... by o_nate on Monday December 19, 2022 @05:43PM (#34058847)
The WHO has data on mental health workers relative to population in various countries around the world. The median number of mental health workers per 100,000 population across 156 countries, is 8. In the US its about 100. China is at the median. India is one of the lowest, at around 1 mental health worker per 100,000 population.
Re:Ask HN: Has anyone here turned around their life in their... by oblio on Tuesday December 20, 2022 @06:20AM (#34064382)
We need to revisit this discussion when Chinese and Indian revenues are at Western levels.

If you take this:

https://www.who.int/data/gho/data/indicators/indicator-detai...

and plot it against a GDP per capita data source, they're basically aligned.

Re:Ask HN: Has anyone here turned around their life in their... by mancerayder on Monday December 19, 2022 @06:06PM (#34059118)
Some possibilities: maybe the European cultures (the white of which you say) have had a break-up of large family structures over the course of the last century, leading to therapy in the first place. That would fit in with some of my other comments in this thread around loneliness and a sick society. And following this it might be that some other cultures with large nuclear families have a sanity check within them where there are people to confide in and give guidance. That's what a therapist does in the end: empathize and give guidance.

Another possibility is there are cultural norms: psychotherapy originates in Europe / Central Europe where it had a blossoming in the late 19th century and spread, and became quite fashionable in among the educated classes (up to and especially in the 1960's, for example).

Re:Ask HN: Has anyone here turned around their life in their... by gorffit on Tuesday December 20, 2022 @02:53AM (#34062902)
That 90% sounds like what I witnessed after getting lost and accidentally wandering into my first and only (and last) 14 minutes worth of an AA meeting. The wrong therapy can easily leave you worse off than no therapy whatsoever.
Re:Ask HN: Has anyone here turned around their life in their... by csomar on Monday December 19, 2022 @08:50PM (#34060524)
> Otherwise how did humanity last this long?

Religion and procreation?