I find this is true for some unions but not all.

We have a union at my company and it’s for our creative writing and video production folks. We’re in the media space. These are some of the most effective and driven people I’ve met or had the privilege of working for.

People being lazy (or not) and wanting to do a good job (or not) is mutually exclusive of whether they are in a union (or not).

I do see why you would think this. Many media outlets and corporations spend lots of time making sure everyone thinks unions are just for lazy people. That’s not true, but after decades, many people think this now.

Hypothesis #1: European unions aren't like American unions in this way: they are far less oppositional to the objectives of the companies.

Hypothesis #2: This is a result of European unions having an origin as trade guilds whereas American unions have an origin as political organizers.

European unions have their roots in revolutionary communism. They then evolved towards social democracy, which is effectively a compromise between socialism and capitalism. This social compromise, where the unions accepted market economy and private property and the employers accepted moderate unions, made the unions what they are today.

American unions evolved in another direction. Because there was no serious risk of a communist revolution, the employers had no need to comromise. Both the employers and the unions remain more confrontational than in Europe.

As a Swede who emigrated to the US:

# 1: Swedish unions are very different from US ones. They understand their companies and the country needs to be competitive on the world market. I have my problems with their power and policies, but they're vastly better for society than the US version.

# 2: The Swedish unions formed the Social Democratic party, that's been the main political power center of the country for a century. Don't know what relations they may have had with guilds in the 1800s.

I think your characterization of unions is a propaganda driven falsehood, and your argument ignores the fact that Most people see less and less of the fruits of their labor.

Yes yes it’s because I’m stupid and have been gotten by propaganda! It’s not due to my valid life experience.

I need some PMC person to come in and save me from myself with their superior intelligence!

NO! Stop trying to frame the debate in this way. People have their beliefs, and even if those beliefs disagree with yours they are still valid.

You’re:

1. Not actually detailing your life experience

2. Repeating tropes and stawmanning arguments that others aren’t making

3. Framing people you don’t agree with as “PMC people”, i.e. you’re not engaging with their arguments

Your final sentence applies in spades to how you’re arguing across the thread. Ridiculous.

Please tell me, how is one supposed to engage with the "argument" that their personal experience and resulting belief is a "propaganda driven falsehood." That's not an argument, it is pure name calling, and doesn't even make sense as this person seems to be basing their beliefs on direct experience from their own professional life.

By:

1. Not labeling people who disagree with you as “part of a professional managerial class” / people who don’t want to work (propaganda) 2. Actually citing personal experience (just saying you have personal experience isn’t a debate/argument)

> Not labeling people who disagree with you as “part of a professional managerial class” / people who don’t want to work (propaganda)

I see, you get to label others with pejoratives like "propaganda", but others are not allowed to respond in kind with labels of their own. Seems a bit one-sided.

My dad and my grandpa worked for unions for decades, and they are the hardest working people I know and take great pride in that.

Good! I’m not saying you cant be a hard worker and also in a union, or even that a pro work union couldn’t exist.

I’m saying my experience with unions is that they’re anti work, and pro PMC.

Does PMC stand for "Professional Managerial Class"?

> I want to get up early, set big goals, work hard on them, and then see the fruits of that hard work.

You might see the fruits of your hard work, but it's your boss who reaps them.

> I want to get up early, set big goals, work hard on them, and then see the fruits of that hard work.

Perhaps you could serve as an example and role model that could inspire union members like Michael Jordan and Tom Brady to work harder.

This reads like propaganda, not a considered take on unions with pros and cons.

I used to work with UAW in the 90s and it was excruciating. I'd be on the floor with one of our machines and I wasn't allowed to even take a panel off with a screwdriver. There was one guy whose job allowed him to unscrew the panel and he was somewhere else, or on a smoke break. I spent so much time sitting around twiddling my thumbs, waiting for this or that person. It was the opposite of having a productive day, I'd never want to work like that.