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Re:Jack Ma flees tech crackdown to Tokyo in twilight of neol... by nitin-pai on Saturday December 17, 2022 @02:44AM (#34025728)
Xi Jinping has reversed all the main features of Deng Xiaoping’s policies. Chasing away your biggest wealth creator, biggest movie star, tennis player etc is a great way to hurt the future prospects of your country.

For every Jack Ma who’s left, there are a thousand lesser known entrepreneurs who’ve shipped out, and a hundred thousand folks who’ve moved their money out/sent their kids abroad.

It’s not a twilight of neoliberalism. It’s the twilight of China’s rise.

Re:Jack Ma flees tech crackdown to Tokyo in twilight of neol... by baby on Saturday December 17, 2022 @03:29AM (#34025952)
I’m imagining that anybody from the Chinese diaspora is reading your comment and shaking their head, for as they still believe in the great power and potential of China.

It’s really hard to break the cult of nationalism. I’m often wondering how one can do that, besides showcasing the freedom of expression that people can have in the west.

Re:Jack Ma flees tech crackdown to Tokyo in twilight of neol... by cm2187 on Saturday December 17, 2022 @03:35AM (#34025983)
No one argues the potential. But an inept regime is very capable of wasting a country's potential for decades. An economy controlled by a political party and where all decisions are made based on corruption or political connections is going to make bad business decisions.

It doesn't matter how good is Xi at running an economy, no one can, not even McKinsey. What makes capitalism successful is millions of initiatives, most of which random, which are tested against the market, the good ideas succeed and take over the bad ones, and in the long run you get extraordinary results. Centralisation always loses.

Re:Jack Ma flees tech crackdown to Tokyo in twilight of neol... by dirtyid on Saturday December 17, 2022 @04:17AM (#34026214)
> Xi at running an economy, no one can

Good thing he doesn't micromanage the economy then. PRC private sector responsible for 60% of gdp, 70% of innovation, 80% of urban employment and 90% of new jobs. CCP+SEOs does some direction, but most of PRC run on market forces, while (IMO) top down / centralized priorities are more competently directed than inept, seeing as PRC is rapidly closing gap in myriad of industries, so much so that others are centralizing and restarting industrial policies in response to PRC moving up value chain. At least US sees enough PRC potential to rationalize massive unilateral tech sanctions because centralization was winning. See similar response when US had to slap JP semi when their centralized approach worked too well. Reality is, for strategic sectors with high moats, centralization always wins because you can't rely on private sector and capitalism to maintain market lead when the board would rather do stock buy backs. And sometimes centralization requires solid dose of corruption and political connection to align resources with strategic goals that private sector is not capable of tackling.

Re:Jack Ma flees tech crackdown to Tokyo in twilight of neol... by brutusborn on Monday December 26, 2022 @07:04AM (#34136984)
How does corruption and political connection align resources with strategic goals? My first thought was that it would make alignment worse since each agent is optimising for person gain, not for national gain.
Re:Jack Ma flees tech crackdown to Tokyo in twilight of neol... by dirtyid on Thursday December 29, 2022 @01:47AM (#34170206)
See Yuen Yuen Ang's model that unbundle corruption, TLDR is PRC bureaucrats are mostly involved in "access money", i.e. elite "exchanges" to get things done (basically lobbying in the west). When aligned with CCP bureaucrats incentivized to hit performance KPIs according to development goals, whereby getting shit done increase access to to greater tiers of corruption / personal gain, it forms a system where corruption is aligned with competency and state interests. CCP officials have to be very good at getting shit done to get promoted to get access to the big graft bux. They want to do well in their tier3 city postings where they can graft thousands and be promoted to tier1 city where they can graft millions. That frequently involves patronage networks with other competent performers.

Years ago this was also noted by Yukon Huang, former World Bank director for China, Russia, and Former Soviet Union Republics, where he observed that PRC is the only country where increased corruption is correlated to increased growth - a paradox according to classical development theories. Essentially everywhere else corruption leads to inefficient allocation because corruption always almost not aligned with state interest. There elite are more just strait up involved in "grand" theft because the system is not aligned to make corruption contingent on realizing state goals. Of course at some point the corruption becomes so much that it affects social fabric, hence Xi's anti corruption drive that some think may have gone over board with respect to development because wheels stopped being greased due to fear/paralysis, no one want to do anythign for little reward or worse.

Re:Jack Ma flees tech crackdown to Tokyo in twilight of neol... by chaostheory on Saturday December 17, 2022 @04:39AM (#34026340)
As a part of the diaspora, I agree with nitin-pai. Xi has all but destroyed China’s rise by killing Deng’s vision for China.

Besides, if you believe so much in the mainland and CCP, why did you leave?

In my opinion, if the mainland was a democracy, it would have probably overtaken the US by now in almost metric other than the military. Shenzhen would have also left Silicon Valley in the dust a long time ago. It’s too bad.

Re:Jack Ma flees tech crackdown to Tokyo in twilight of neol... by HKH2 on Saturday December 17, 2022 @05:44AM (#34026665)
> I’m often wondering how one can do that, besides showcasing the freedom of expression that people can have in the west.

That only works for people who give a damn about freedom of expression. Can you imagine what it'd be like if almost every conversation you had were linked to money somehow?

Re:Jack Ma flees tech crackdown to Tokyo in twilight of neol... by nomay on Saturday December 17, 2022 @03:11AM (#34025861)
From the party's view, although e-commerce helped in driving down consumer prices despite sky-high inequality and property speculation (much to the party's plan and advantage), he should remain manageble and of use.

The principle is simple for any entity (and a wild west capitalism stint too), when the party need you, you give them your best, and when they don't, according to their grand plan, you must sacrifice without a word.

Nothing is more important than the safety of the party and the ruling class.

Re:Jack Ma flees tech crackdown to Tokyo in twilight of neol... by tw1984 on Saturday December 17, 2022 @04:11AM (#34026169)
> The principle is simple for any entity (and a wild west capitalism stint too), when the party need you, you give them your best, and when they don't, according to their grand plan, you must sacrifice without a word.

You seem to be pretty happy on ignoring all Ma's very dodgy dealings.

Re:Jack Ma flees tech crackdown to Tokyo in twilight of neol... by akomtu on Saturday December 17, 2022 @03:14AM (#34025875)
Nothing to celebrate here. When the economy dies, the king starts a war to distract his people. Xi won't suffer from his decisions, we will.
Re:Jack Ma flees tech crackdown to Tokyo in twilight of neol... by gsatic on Saturday December 17, 2022 @03:04AM (#34025839)
Its all just prep work before the mindless Taiwan invasion begins.
Re:Jack Ma flees tech crackdown to Tokyo in twilight of neol... by Jerry2 on Saturday December 17, 2022 @03:15AM (#34025888)
Taiwanese local elections from 2022 [1] are an indications that there won't be any need for a full-scale Chinese invasion. China is patient and they'll keep on influencing politicians and citizens of Taiwan until they acquiesce to Chinese rule. America's hegemony is on its last legs and being a massive thorn in China's side will not that advantageous anymore to Taiwan. The odds are pretty high that Taiwan will avoid the faith of becoming another Ukraine.

[1] https://www.reuters.com/world/asia-pacific/taiwan-votes-loca...

Re:Jack Ma flees tech crackdown to Tokyo in twilight of neol... by helsinkiandrew on Saturday December 17, 2022 @03:38AM (#34026005)
That's complete nonsense, every poll over the past 30 years has shown a constantly increasing number of Taiwanese don't want to be part of China. China's behaviour in Hong Kong will only likely strengthen that view.

See the chart here: https://www.grid.news/story/global/2022/09/02/three-reasons-...

Re:Jack Ma flees tech crackdown to Tokyo in twilight of neol... by culi on Saturday December 17, 2022 @07:02PM (#34033605)
You should look at the source for that chart. Not sure why grid.news decided to do this, but the original chart[0] actually has 7 categories. grid.news left some of those out and (combined?) some others? Anyways I think the full data tells a pretty different story...

There does seem to be recent (~2018) in support for independence. But the interesting thing is there was actually a shift towards more support for unification right before that. It's also probably important to take into account the methodology[1] and the low sample sizes corresponding with the largest shifts

[0]: https://esc.nccu.edu.tw/PageDoc/Detail?fid=7801&id=6963

[1]: https://esc.nccu.edu.tw/upload/44/doc/6965/%E9%87%8D%E8%A6%8...

Re:Jack Ma flees tech crackdown to Tokyo in twilight of neol... by helsinkiandrew on Sunday December 18, 2022 @03:24AM (#34035939)
The original chart https://esc.nccu.edu.tw/upload/44/doc/6963/Tondu202206.jpg shows even more the movement away from unification with China.

The lack of support for "Full Independence" rather than the Status Quo of effective independence they have now is usually explained by people not choosing a policy that provokes China into attack.

Re:Jack Ma flees tech crackdown to Tokyo in twilight of neol... by throwoutway on Sunday December 18, 2022 @02:26PM (#34041785)
That’s exactly it. There’s interviews with the the president saying effectively that. A reporter tried to get her to say it on record, and she effectively said there’s no need. They de facto independence. No need to provoke an attack
Re:Jack Ma flees tech crackdown to Tokyo in twilight of neol... by keewee7 on Saturday December 17, 2022 @03:24AM (#34025927)
I don't know what you're trying to imply with that link. The vast majority of Taiwanese don't want to be part of China.

One politician's failed attempt at using fear-mongering about imminent Chinese to get elected does not imply the Taiwanese want to become part of China.

Re:Jack Ma flees tech crackdown to Tokyo in twilight of neol... by roenxi on Saturday December 17, 2022 @04:13AM (#34026187)
We can all see what happened in Ukraine. The country is well on the way to being a smoking crater, they barely have a power grid, they've lost 10% of their land and something like 20% of their population have become refugees. We have yet to see the ramifications of pouring weapons into the 2nd most corrupt country in Europe but it is unlikely to be pretty either. Their economy is probably an ex-economy. If things go really wrong it is plausible that they will get nuked.

Compare that Hong Kong, where life sucks but, end of the day, it isn't a war zone. Not as civilised as it once was, but still a respectable city.

At the end of the day, there are some very difficult decisions to be made by Taiwan. Integration into China is an option that they will at least have to consider. It is a terrible option. It may be the best option they have. In their shoes, I'd be wargaming ditching the US and negotiating some sort of protectorate deal with China. Probably thinking very hard about trying to be grandfathered in as some sort of neutral Switzerland. War is still just as horrific as it ever was and being at war with the world's most industrial superpower is a very bad plan A.

Re:Jack Ma flees tech crackdown to Tokyo in twilight of neol... by philistine on Saturday December 17, 2022 @09:42AM (#34028115)
Are you Taiwanese? You sound like a Star Wars imperialist making decisions for a local planet in their stead.
Re:Jack Ma flees tech crackdown to Tokyo in twilight of neol... by roenxi on Saturday December 17, 2022 @09:49AM (#34028172)
No, I'm Australian. What do you think the best path forward is for the Taiwanese?
Re:Jack Ma flees tech crackdown to Tokyo in twilight of neol... by kortilla on Saturday December 17, 2022 @01:04PM (#34030385)
Independence
Re:Jack Ma flees tech crackdown to Tokyo in twilight of neol... by roenxi on Saturday December 17, 2022 @05:27PM (#34032939)
That isn't really a path, that is a destination - how do you want them to keep their independence? Because if the plan is to sit on China's border as a staunch, militarily aligned US ally that is a plan with some very obvious risks - especially in light of what happened to Ukraine.

In fact, the only way that ends well for Taiwan is if China experiences some sort of collapse. Possible, but not really a good strategy.

Re:Jack Ma flees tech crackdown to Tokyo in twilight of neol... by philistine on Sunday December 18, 2022 @09:53AM (#34038226)
Whatever the Taiwanese decide themselves.
Re:Jack Ma flees tech crackdown to Tokyo in twilight of neol... by culi on Saturday December 17, 2022 @07:06PM (#34033638)
I agree we should be supporting whatever it is the actual people of these countries want. Online discourses about what other countries should do drive me nuts

If we had let the people decide in Ukraine, we probably wouldn't be at war now. Zelenskyy ran on and was largely elected because of a platform of making peace. And he kept his word once elected and negotiated a peace deal with Putin. It was the US and NATO that stepped in to break that apart when it was just about to be signed.

The people of Ukraine clearly supported peace and we should have respected the people's will

Re:Jack Ma flees tech crackdown to Tokyo in twilight of neol... by _kbh_ on Saturday December 17, 2022 @09:31PM (#34034521)
All 'peace' with Russia temporary they will only use it to rebuild there forces and attack again.

Why should anyone believe a word from a Russian peace agreement is actually going to be honoured?. They already previously promised to respect Ukraines sovereignty and to never invade it but they went ahead and did it anyway.

Russia is not a good faith actor, and you cannot treat it as one.

Re:Jack Ma flees tech crackdown to Tokyo in twilight of neol... by culi on Sunday December 18, 2022 @03:13AM (#34035886)
I generally agree, but they've been extremely clear that this is about NATO expansion. And NATO has actually made multiple promises to NOT expand to the point of Russia's border but has made those exact expansions 3 times in the past decades. Everything Russia's done has pretty much been a direct response to this. The primary ask of the peace deal was basically just that Ukraine doesn't join NATO (something which at the time was unpopular anyways). Add to that that Joe Biden (who was the head of the US's Russia's strategy under Obama) has been pretty explicit about everything since 2014. Their primary goal is to weaken Russia. That's exactly what this proxy war is and exactly why we keep sending so much "aid". That's also why in September 66 countries representing most of the world's population asked "all sides" to resume peace talks. They didn't just mean Russia and Ukraine...

Americans need to own up to their role in this (no, I'm not a Russia apologist)

Re:Jack Ma flees tech crackdown to Tokyo in twilight of neol... by _kbh_ on Sunday December 18, 2022 @04:51AM (#34036300)
> but they've been extremely clear that this is about NATO expansion

So? it doesn't matter what Russia thinks, Ukraine is a sovereign country that can join NATO if it wants, just like other former Warsaw pact countries they all probably have a very good reason.

> And NATO has actually made multiple promises to NOT expand to the point of Russia's border but has made those exact expansions 3 times in the past decades.

This is actually false, NATO has never made this promise, there is time just after the fall of the Soviet Union that people claim this was made but the person who was there at the time disagrees, you can read about that here.

https://theconversation.com/ukraine-the-history-behind-russi...

> Everything Russia's done has pretty much been a direct response to this.

I agree thats it's very likely that everything Russia has done has to do with either perceived slights (that dont actually exist) or imperialism.

> The primary ask of the peace deal was basically just that Ukraine doesn't join NATO

The reason Russia doesn't want Ukraine joining NATO is so that they can try this again in the future, Ukraine needs solid military alliances (even if not NATO) that mandate boots on the ground.

> That's exactly what this proxy war is and exactly why we keep sending so much "aid"

Our "aid" actually stops Ukrainians being killed and tortured, but if your all for letting Ukraine been steam rolled and genocided by Russia you wouldn't want any "aid" sent I guess.

> Americans need to own up to their role in this (no, I'm not a Russia apologist)

I'll take your word for it but every single sentence so far has been pretty much straight pro Russian so don't be surprised if I find it not believable.

If your not a Russian apologist I take it you want Russia to leave Ukraine (including Crimea) and for war crimes proceedings to begin against the Russians who are committing war crimes in Ukraine?.

Re:Jack Ma flees tech crackdown to Tokyo in twilight of neol... by throwoutway on Sunday December 18, 2022 @02:30PM (#34041848)
> And he kept his word once elected and negotiated a peace deal with Putin. It was the US and NATO that stepped in to break that apart when it was just about to be signed.

This is nonsense. Zelenskyy is on record saying the opposite and blaming Putin for not accepting the peace offering and also it’s obvious Putin started the war. Nobody else did

Re:Jack Ma flees tech crackdown to Tokyo in twilight of neol... by eloisius on Saturday December 17, 2022 @03:33AM (#34025969)
KMT simply have a better ground game when it comes to local elections. After 40 years of single-party rule, they are still the Good Ol’ Boys of local politics. People care more about DPP’s policies nationally. The electorate still overwhelmingly reject unification.
Re:Jack Ma flees tech crackdown to Tokyo in twilight of neol... by HyperSane on Saturday December 17, 2022 @03:29AM (#34025950)
"America's hegemony is on its last legs"

On the contrary, Russia's invasion of Ukraine has strengthened America's hegemony massively by showing the world how weak Russia is and how good the US's military and intelligence are.

"Taiwan will avoid the faith of becoming another Ukraine."

By just rolling over for China?

Overall you seem pretty pro-CCP.

Re:Jack Ma flees tech crackdown to Tokyo in twilight of neol... by tw1984 on Saturday December 17, 2022 @04:17AM (#34026209)
> On the contrary, Russia's invasion of Ukraine has strengthened America's hegemony massively by showing the world how weak Russia is and how good the US's military and intelligence are.

Just checked my calendar again, it is 2022, not 1992. The US has a single challenger in this entire world, it is China. How strong/weak is Russia is irrelevant.

Re:Jack Ma flees tech crackdown to Tokyo in twilight of neol... by HyperSane on Saturday December 17, 2022 @05:58PM (#34033152)
Russia likes to think it was a challenger to the US, and the US thought it was also until now. It took Russia's abysmal showing in the Ukraine invasion to show the world just how irrelevant Russia really is.
Re:Jack Ma flees tech crackdown to Tokyo in twilight of neol... by gsatic on Saturday December 17, 2022 @03:29AM (#34025951)
Oh I see and the reason their military budget is greater than the sum total of all their neighbors is because of what? Worried about the Mongols?
Re:Jack Ma flees tech crackdown to Tokyo in twilight of neol... by tw1984 on Saturday December 17, 2022 @04:23AM (#34026248)
Same question, why the US has to spend 800 billion $ a year? worried about an invasion by Mexico?

That military budget got criticized by many Chinese. With a comparable GDP to the US, the CCP constantly refuses to further increase its military spending. As a result of such policy failure, its defense budget is just about 20% of the US one.

Re:Jack Ma flees tech crackdown to Tokyo in twilight of neol... by gsatic on Saturday December 17, 2022 @05:51AM (#34026700)
The question stands, irrespective of what legacy or current dysfunction the US is suffering from. And Taiwan Invasion is the logical answer. There is really no other reason. Just look at US struggling to even raise a single Division of troops in Europe to support Ukraine. If they cant do it in Europe, there is no way they are a serious threat as far away as Taiwan.
Re:Jack Ma flees tech crackdown to Tokyo in twilight of neol... by dirtyid on Saturday December 17, 2022 @04:35AM (#34026309)
> military budget is greater than the sum total of all their neighbors is because of what

Because PRC has greater population and GDP than rest of region combined, of which she spends less than 2% on defense, less than most of her neighbours, less than what America wants NATO allies to spend on, and now less than JPs revised budget. All in all, too modest.

Re:Jack Ma flees tech crackdown to Tokyo in twilight of neol... by chaostheory on Saturday December 17, 2022 @04:45AM (#34026369)
If it was true that this still was the CCP’s main strategy for Taiwan, it would have been a relief. This was the policy before Xi’s ascension. Unfortunately, Xi isn’t very bright or as patient as his predecessors.
Re:Jack Ma flees tech crackdown to Tokyo in twilight of neol... by dirtyid on Saturday December 17, 2022 @03:46AM (#34026046)
>hurt the future prospects of your country

Reality demonstrates otherwise. Slapping speculative billionaries and tax evading actors is a great way to improve prospects of country. Deng: let some people get rich. Many did, excessively so. Under Hu, his policies ran it's course, the next step was always to reign the extravagantly rich in. Breaking softwares hold on monopolizing talent to shave seconds of food delivery and tech workforce has now been reoriented towards strategic hardware, sectors that's seen huge growth in employment and wages post soft tech crackdown. Capital controls slowed enormous capital flight, while PRC has been consistently moving up value chain (even during zero covid), with waves of sea turtles abroad flooding back, including record amount from academia now that PRC is flush with resources and opportunities. There's reason US (and TW) literally has to sanction their workforce from working in Chinese semi, while hammering their industrial policies. Meanwhile PRC kids being sent abroad are mostly those too dumb to make it in Gaokao, this isn't the 70-00s where state was sending out top talent to learn abroad, now PRC is not sending their best anymore. See how PRC rapidly climbing science and innovation indexes (controlled for quality) in last few years. All of which doesn't factoring in the fundemental human capita math that PRC is now generating so much high skilled talent (~OECD combined) paired with mature industrial base, that brain drain no longer meaningfully impedes her rise. And last I checked PRC is still generating plenty of media and winning tons of the medals in the last few olympics. Believe it or not, most Chinese are fine pursuing the dream of being an apolitical millionaire with an escape plan abroad just incase their kids are too dumb to compete in pressure cooker PRC society.

Re:Jack Ma flees tech crackdown to Tokyo in twilight of neol... by candiodari on Saturday December 17, 2022 @05:14AM (#34026511)
https://www.latimes.com/archives/la-xpm-2012-jan-08-la-fg-ch...

Last party congress the CCP had a problem. There wasn't enough place within the walls of the forbidden city ... for all the VERY expensive cars (>120k USD) the politicians arrived in.

These people, presumably the main decision makers, you say are going to chose against their own wealth over a very long period of time just because that would be the better thing to do for their children and grandchildren? Just because the party policy no longer wants them to have luxury cars from moment X?

I find it very hard to believe the CCP will make better choices than any western democracy. Oh, and by any indication the cars are still there.

Re:Jack Ma flees tech crackdown to Tokyo in twilight of neol... by dirtyid on Saturday December 17, 2022 @11:55AM (#34029565)
> "Last party congress"

Article doesn't mention party congress at all. Last party congress was 2022, before that was 2017. Your article from Jan 2012 is almost year before Xi entered office and his anti corruption drive that dramatically reduced public displays of extravagance, which is not "very expensive" 100k-300k luxury cars. Chinese sentiment circa 2012 was generally fine with top 100s officials and their rich spawn driving nice cars, let alone Audi A6s. Because ultimately that was peanuts to the stupid extravagance like banquets officials were flaunting that cost more than said cars.

The actual article covers post Gansu bus crash negative sentiment that resulted in school bus safety reforms. Some kids died, people whined, it was loud enough, reforms happened. It also touches on low-mid level bureaucrats and their beyond salary nice cars, many of which are not still there after 2M+ anti corruption cases by CCDI. In fact, article highlights why someone like Xi was selected to rule, and why he hammered anti corruption so hard. Again, low-mid level bureaucrats driving Benz =/= hundreds of standing/presidum of NPC or central congress members, aka literally the creme de la creme of most powerful politicians / wealthy industrialists in PRC being able to afford nice cars. It would be wierd if they couldn't.

> against their own wealth over a very long period

If they get purged by CCDI where does that leave their children / grand children? Hence sitting on their piles of gains quietly with escape plan abroad. If anything anti-corruption has been too effective because historically corruption facilitated getting things done fast and there are signs of paralysis down the bureaucracy chain due to caution. Or recent analysis trying to hammer Xi for increasing income inequality, but actual data shows top 1% share of wealth relatively stagnant and most grown among burgeoning middle class. Ultimately, it's easy for 1% to go against accumulating more excessive wealth. for very long period of time, if it means holding on to what they have while avoiding the guillotine, especially if they can still enjoy their nice cars in moderation. Behaving is path of least resistence vs even running abroad where PRC long arm can still harass while capital controls makes it impossible to take out all wealth. Jack Ma can chill in JP, but most of his money is still trapped in PRC, by design.

> find it very hard to believe the CCP will make better choices than any western democracy

Not in every domain but but certainly some/many - again western democracies are trying hard to imitate CCP industrial policy - previously dirty neolib word - to maintain competitiveness. All while top western politicians are driving their own fancy cars. State department wouldn't label PRC as "only country with the economic, diplomatic, military, and technological power to seriously challenge" US if PRC leadership wasn't in aggregate, making better choices over past decades.

Re:Jack Ma flees tech crackdown to Tokyo in twilight of neol... by culi on Saturday December 17, 2022 @06:41PM (#34033444)
Jack Ma's upset that the Chinese government won't let him require 72 hour work weeks. Say what you want about the government, but I don't think any common person in China is gonna miss this asshole