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Re:John Carmack Leaves Meta by yawnxyz on Friday December 16, 2022 @08:16PM (#34023109)
it's so wild to me that FAANG has these hiring walls set up — like crazy coding challenges — only for the best engineers to then do work equivalent to what you see at gov't or consulting jobs.

Why do they make it so hard to work for them, just for their employees to play status games?

Re:John Carmack Leaves Meta by carabiner on Friday December 16, 2022 @09:11PM (#34023587)
If they are so bad, why are they so successful? Why hasn't anyone disrupted them with superior business practices and a better product?
Re:John Carmack Leaves Meta by cmrdporcupine on Friday December 16, 2022 @09:25PM (#34023674)
They do get disrupted. All the time. And so then they turn around and buy the companies that disrupted them, and take them apart.

Also they have a firehose of revenue which makes it possible to hire hire hire, push compensation levels up, and suck the air out of any other interesting companies.

Re:John Carmack Leaves Meta by nobodyandproud on Friday December 16, 2022 @09:26PM (#34023689)
So FAANG has set themselves up to hire retain sharp STEM grads who are savvy at politics.

That’s a very small subset of the STEM population.

Small anecdote : I’ve noticed that Ivy leaguers tend to be very polished and particularly good at the game.

Re:John Carmack Leaves Meta by theGnuMe on Friday December 16, 2022 @09:56PM (#34023935)
And ivy league liberal arts majors run the country..
Re:John Carmack Leaves Meta by glial on Saturday December 17, 2022 @02:38AM (#34025698)
I've always thought that learning how to play the game was the primary value proposition of an Ivy League education. You can learn mechanical engineering or whatever just as well elsewhere.
Re:John Carmack Leaves Meta by bambataa on Saturday December 17, 2022 @04:46AM (#34026371)
Another way of phrasing it is “sharp STEM grass with strong interpersonal skills”, which seems like a good thing?
Re:John Carmack Leaves Meta by nobodyandproud on Saturday December 17, 2022 @10:32AM (#34028537)
I chose my words deliberately.

Interpersonal skills is a necessary component of playing the game, but the end game is power and influence and winning.

It’s awful when the wrong tool/stack/architecture/etc. is chosen due to someone’s powerplay.

There are little emperors at every firm trying to lobby their influence; then the ones who gain start choking off anything that smacks of competition.

I see this as a huge negative.

Re:John Carmack Leaves Meta by theGnuMe on Friday December 16, 2022 @09:56PM (#34023930)
>Why do they make it so hard to work for them, just for their employees to play status games?

"We only hire the smartest folks with the highest GPAs from these schools."

That was a hiring strategy that was famously debunked by Google itself. Now they hire folks that never went to college or were not CS majors. As in they can also be physicists, mathematicians, artists.. etc...

However, I guess they still though think leetcode is a useful signal to identify talent. Or talent that can be trained. So it is more of an aptitude test. Like how a college degree is a signal that you completed something. And a PhD is a signal that you can do research. It doesn't mean other folks can't.

We all know this fails to assess actual work performance (which is subjective anyway) but that is presumably proven by your work history itself. Work performance is a better measure of actual performance than the leetcode proxy any day.

It also most certainly does not select for diversity and different problem solving perspectives. This is a big blind side for any corporation. But you have to be an interested and motivated hiring manager to identify those people. Those are probably the best to hire though. I imagine YC is looking for those types since it is sort of a required trait for a startup.

Some of the best software engineering managers and software product types I've worked with are not CS majors and cannot program.

By now Google has the data to run the analysis for these types studies across the board. They may even have natural controls (people who've transferred roles internally etc...) if they don't have proper randomized controls.

Re:John Carmack Leaves Meta by howinteresting on Friday December 16, 2022 @10:32PM (#34024260)
The coding challenges are basically IQ tests that have been laundered into something tangentially relevant to the job, since actual IQ tests for employment are on shaky legal ground in the US.
Re:John Carmack Leaves Meta by chihuahua on Friday December 16, 2022 @10:49PM (#34024401)
That's the best explanation for Leetcode interviews that I've seen.
Re:John Carmack Leaves Meta by howinteresting on Saturday December 17, 2022 @01:05AM (#34025273)
It's an open secret. Everyone within the FAANGs knows what the tests are for, even if many of them won't admit it.