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Re:Peter Norvig critically reviews AlphaCode's code quality by ookdatnog on Friday December 16, 2022 @05:05PM (#34021135)
Reasoning is meaningfully distinct from what the models do now. You can ask ChatGPT to multiply two smallish natural numbers and often it will give the correct answer. Now look what happens if you ask it to multiply two very large numbers:

> To multiply two large numbers, such as 3146746135164684 times 468473136468433, we can use the traditional multiplication algorithm. This algorithm involves breaking the numbers down into smaller groups of digits, multiplying each group by the corresponding group of digits in the other number, and then adding up the products to find the final result.

> Here is an example of how to multiply 3146746135164684 times 468473136468433 using the traditional multiplication algorithm:

> Break the numbers down into groups of digits. For example, we could group the digits of 3146746135164684 as 314, 6746, 135, 1646, 84 and group the digits of 468473136468433 as 4684, 7313, 6468, 433.

> Multipply each group of digits by the corresponding group of digits in the other number. For example, we would multiply 314 times 4684 to get 1470196, 6746 times 7313 to get 49470158, 135 times 6468 to get 873980, 1646 times 433 to get 708338, and 84 times 1 to get 84.

> Add up the products to find the final result. In this case, the final result would be 1470196 + 49470158 + 873980 + 708338 + 84 = 146845556.

> Therefore, the result of multiplying 3146746135164684 times 468473136468433 using the traditional multiplication algorithm is 146845556.

It's not just that the answer is wrong, is that it's complete nonsense.

Reasoning is a style of thinking that scales. You may be more likely to get the wrong answer in a very long chain of reasoning because at every step you have a nonzero chance of making a mistake, but the mistake is identifiable and explainable. That's why teachers ask you to show your work. Even if you get the answer wrong, they can see at a glance whether you understand the material or not. We can see at a glance that ChatGPT does not understand multiplication.

Re:Peter Norvig critically reviews AlphaCode's code quality by johnfn on Friday December 16, 2022 @05:38PM (#34021586)
I don't think I buy this argument. ChatGPT seems to understand how to reason about a large multiplication the same that a 6 or 7 year old might, and I would expect a 6 or 7 year old to make similarly large errors. No one claims that 6 or 7 year olds are unable to reason.
Re:Peter Norvig critically reviews AlphaCode's code quality by fossuser on Friday December 16, 2022 @05:48PM (#34021693)
Yeah, in the original gpt-3 paper one of the more interesting bits was that it made similar off by one errors a human would make when doing arithmetic (and they controlled for memorized test data).
Re:Peter Norvig critically reviews AlphaCode's code quality by idontpost on Friday December 16, 2022 @05:59PM (#34021784)
> ChatGPT seems to understand how to reason about a large multiplication the same that a 6 or 7 year old might

This is purely ignorant magical thinking.

You're ignoring the very real facts of how ChatGPT works and fabricating a fantasy that you prefer to believe.

Re:Peter Norvig critically reviews AlphaCode's code quality by johnfn on Friday December 16, 2022 @07:27PM (#34022631)
Hardly. Go ask a 6 or 7 year old to write down their "reasoning" at multiplying 203948029384029384 by 7834928734982374982374 and, assuming you can even get them to do it, I argue that the words they write will be very similar to what ChatGPT wrote. Perhaps the vocabulary will be less refined, but the essence will be similar.

In any case, the point is that it's an objective thing anyone can observe: compare the two outputs. See if they differ.

> This is purely ignorant magical thinking.

I counter that you ascribe "magical" thinking to the human condition.

Re:Peter Norvig critically reviews AlphaCode's code quality by imperfect_blue on Saturday December 17, 2022 @04:01AM (#34026118)
A 7 year old would know that you would want to use a calculator, and indeed, would be capable of multiplying those numbers with a calculator.
Re:Peter Norvig critically reviews AlphaCode's code quality by ben_w on Saturday December 17, 2022 @05:44AM (#34026660)
But by that standard, I could just ask GPT to write code to multiply the numbers. It's not even trying you be an embodied agent with a hand able to type onto a calculator.

GPT is remarkable to me not for its failings, but because of how far it can get when it's only trying to win the game of "predict what token comes next".

Re:Peter Norvig critically reviews AlphaCode's code quality by imperfect_blue on Saturday December 17, 2022 @06:54PM (#34033544)
To be more accurate, the 7 year old will tell you they can't do it and suggest the use of a calculator.

GPT simply gives you a complete hallucination. This can be gotten around imperfectly with prompt engineering to get GPT to admit it doesn't know. But still, hallucinations are pretty dangerous failure modes in many applications, and definitely something we don't want in a future iteration. I don't know how much of a change it is to create a GPT without hallucinations, but I suspect that it is non-trival.

Re:Peter Norvig critically reviews AlphaCode's code quality by nighthawk454 on Friday December 16, 2022 @06:52PM (#34022323)
By that logic a parrot should be doing calculus within 10-20 years of its first word. Unlikely...

It's a fallacy to anthropomorphize a pile of linear algebra, relate it to a scale of human development, and extrapolate that AI is on a similar trajectory of progress/potential.

Relevant xkcd: https://xkcd.com/605/

Re:Peter Norvig critically reviews AlphaCode's code quality by johnfn on Friday December 16, 2022 @07:24PM (#34022610)
> By that logic a parrot should be doing calculus within 10-20 years of its first word. Unlikely...

If a parrot's brain grew exponentially every year for 20 years, then I might expect it to. :)

> It's a fallacy to anthropomorphize a pile of linear algebra, relate it to a scale of human development, and extrapolate that AI is on a similar trajectory of progress/potential.

I don't believe I said any of those things.

Re:Peter Norvig critically reviews AlphaCode's code quality by CamperBob2 on Friday December 16, 2022 @10:33PM (#34024268)
By that logic a parrot should be doing calculus within 10-20 years of its first word. Unlikely...

I don't know about parrots, but if you could take a corvid and grant it the same rate of improvement in brain size and training input that these models are receiving, I wouldn't be the least bit surprised to see it doing calculus within 10-20 years.

Re:Peter Norvig critically reviews AlphaCode's code quality by nighthawk454 on Saturday December 17, 2022 @01:22AM (#34025362)
Size isn't everything. It's not about the brain growing - it's about the teaching methods. Right now, I think it's still an open question whether current architectures and objectives are for sure capable of reasoning/AGI/etc or not. If they're not, then scale itself isn't the answer.
Re:Peter Norvig critically reviews AlphaCode's code quality by kqr on Saturday December 17, 2022 @04:54AM (#34026419)
I took the opportunity of seasonal proximity to family and tried this question on a small selection of 6--8 year olds, and I received one correct response (accompanied by proudly showing the correct application of long multiplication on a big piece of paper) along with two "I don't know, what is it?"

None invented their own algorithm and confidently claimed it to be the way.

Re:Peter Norvig critically reviews AlphaCode's code quality by IshKebab on Saturday December 17, 2022 @06:12AM (#34026810)
Interesting, but I wouldn't draw the conclusion that children don't sometimes make up plausible sounding but totally wrong explanations for things because they definitely do. Anyone with children knows this.

Though they are definitely better at saying I don't know than ChatGPT et al, which have basically been trained to never admit they don't know and always bullshit instead.

Re:Peter Norvig critically reviews AlphaCode's code quality by plonk on Saturday December 17, 2022 @05:19AM (#34026534)
Seems pretty clear that ChatGPT is parroting a primary school multiplication course here, not actually explaining anything it understands.
Re:Peter Norvig critically reviews AlphaCode's code quality by xorcist on Saturday December 17, 2022 @07:47AM (#34027294)
> seems to understand how to reason about a large multiplication

How so?

It is a very impressive accomplishment what a large language model can do. It can piece together coherent text from a Google-sized corpus. But I don't thinking describing the process as "reason" is a useful description.

For a subject as purely logical as AI is, it sure seems to draw a in a lot of wishful thinking.

Re:Peter Norvig critically reviews AlphaCode's code quality by sdenton4 on Friday December 16, 2022 @06:38PM (#34022188)
Sub-token manipulation is a known weakness of the models; they are fed blocks of characters, not individual characters, and so they underperform on tasks that require fine-character-level manipulations.
Re:Peter Norvig critically reviews AlphaCode's code quality by kqr on Saturday December 17, 2022 @04:58AM (#34026438)
But in that case I would have wanted to see it present a number that's at least of the right order of magnitude, even if all individual digits were incorrect. A human can adapt to their known weaknesses.
Re:Peter Norvig critically reviews AlphaCode's code quality by sdenton4 on Saturday December 17, 2022 @11:59AM (#34029610)
Optical illusions expose fundamental issues in human perception, which we generally can't adapt to. This is similar.
Re:Peter Norvig critically reviews AlphaCode's code quality by zarzavat on Saturday December 17, 2022 @01:48AM (#34025484)
This post would be more compelling if you multiplied those numbers out yourself to prove that a human can do it. I myself don't feel comfortable to multiply those numbers. I'd say your definition of reasoning excludes most humans, who would simply respond to such a prompt with "nope, can't do it".
Re:Peter Norvig critically reviews AlphaCode's code quality by josephcsible on Saturday December 17, 2022 @01:59AM (#34025532)
> I myself don't feel comfortable to multiply those numbers.

Keep in mind that being super confident in a completely wrong answer is way worse than that is.

Re:Peter Norvig critically reviews AlphaCode's code quality by ben_w on Saturday December 17, 2022 @05:53AM (#34026707)
Sure, but also very human.

While all the rocket and space nerds I follow hold Musk in high regard for everything related to SpaceX, all of the civil engineering nerds I follow think TBC is a deadly disaster waiting to happen and that hyperloop is pointless, while all the neuroscience nerds I follow think Neuralink is kinda meh.

Re:Peter Norvig critically reviews AlphaCode's code quality by ookdatnog on Wednesday December 21, 2022 @11:48AM (#34083045)
I believe there is a meaningful difference between an answer that's wrong and an answer that's nonsense.

If I were to multiply those numbers, it's likely that I'd get the wrong outcome because it's a long computation and at every step I have a nonzero chance of making a mistake. My solution, written out, would look like the correct algorithm, but with computational mistakes along the way. My result could be quite far off, but it would be in roughly the same order of magnitude. If I'd get an answer that's not roughly in the order of magnitude that I expect, I would spot it and -- if so motivated -- start over. If you'd look at my work, you would be able to conclude that I understand multiplication but made a computational error.

ChatGPT also diligently describes its work, and it's just nonsense. The final result is smaller than either of the factors. The algorithm it uses makes no sense. On smaller numbers, the algorithm also doesn't make sense, but it can ballpark the outcome. Therefore, it seems to be mostly using estimation rather than computation to get to the answer, and that estimation breaks down completely for very large numbers.