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Re:Apple to allow outside app stores in overhaul spurred by ... by cmdli on Tuesday December 13, 2022 @04:12PM (#33975872)
Are you allowed to buy into a walled garden where developers can’t force you to sideload apps to use their apps? That’s what I want to do, but it seems the EU is making that illegal. It seems that users who value freedom can buy Android, and users who value security can buy Apple, but the second option is going away.
Re:Apple to allow outside app stores in overhaul spurred by ... by smoldesu on Tuesday December 13, 2022 @04:24PM (#33976044)
If Apple offers it, sure.

"Introducing: iLess - A $15/month optional subscription fee that removes sideloading from your phone."

Sure to be a smash hit, sounds like exactly what you're looking for!

Re:Apple to allow outside app stores in overhaul spurred by ... by LightHugger on Tuesday December 13, 2022 @04:27PM (#33976094)
What is this logic? Nobody is stopping you from staying in your walled garden. You want to stop other people from escaping it, though?
Re:Apple to allow outside app stores in overhaul spurred by ... by sircastor on Tuesday December 13, 2022 @05:07PM (#33976680)
A walled garden they willing walked into and willingly can leave at any time? It’s not as though there’s nowhere else to go. The trouble is people want all the benefits of the walled garden without the wall.
Re:Apple to allow outside app stores in overhaul spurred by ... by cmdli on Tuesday December 13, 2022 @04:38PM (#33976246)
Nobody is stopping you from escaping the walled garden; you can absolutely go buy an Android device which is equivalent to an iPhone but without these sorts of restrictions.

The trouble is that the walled garden approach only works if the wall goes all the way around. If Facebook, Google, or the other big ad companies are allowed to access the iOS ecosystem without consumer protections, then they absolutely will and will force users to go along with it. This is about developer freedom, not user freedom.

Re:Apple to allow outside app stores in overhaul spurred by ... by smoldesu on Tuesday December 13, 2022 @05:02PM (#33976608)
> Nobody is stopping you from escaping the walled garden;

Apple does. I buy a Macbook, and I can modify the bootloader to completely leave MacOS. It's a pain in the ass, and Apple certainly doesn't make it easy as it was on x86, but it's an option. Even if I use MacOS, I still have the option to disable system integrity, install unsigned apps and use third-party software managers.

That's a system that lets me escape the walled garden. They give me concessions inside their OS and an escape-hatch for third-party OSes if they really fuck things up. The iPhone has none of those things. If you buy an iPhone, your only way to leave the walled garden is to not use the iPhone. Buying an Android phone does not break your iPhone out of the walled garden.

Re:Apple to allow outside app stores in overhaul spurred by ... by IIAOPSW on Tuesday December 13, 2022 @04:23PM (#33976030)
No one is forcing you to use any app, let alone developers.

Without this becoming a rant, what fraction of that "security" is protecting you from nothing more than apps that didn't pay the Apple tax. You must admit, the narrative that only approved apps are "good"/"safe" is insanely self serving and conveniently hard to falsify.

Re:Apple to allow outside app stores in overhaul spurred by ... by cmdli on Tuesday December 13, 2022 @04:28PM (#33976112)
Let me provide a concrete example: right now I can download and use Facebook, with less tracking than Facebook likes, on the App Store. If Facebook is allowed to offer a sideloaded app with all the tracking included, what do you think the chances are they will keep the version on the App Store? If they remove it and only offer the new sideloaded version, I am worse off as a user than I am right now.
Re:Apple to allow outside app stores in overhaul spurred by ... by mrtksn on Tuesday December 13, 2022 @04:33PM (#33976180)
If you don’t trust facebook without Apple’s help, maybe don’t use it?

You have a point but without Apple’s restrictions, someone can build tracking free Facebook client too, if that’s something people want.

Re:Apple to allow outside app stores in overhaul spurred by ... by throw10920 on Tuesday December 13, 2022 @05:22PM (#33976907)
This is relying on Apple to act as a regulator of Facebook. That's not Apple's job, and they do a bad job of it. That's the job of the government, which is actually (ostensibly (unlike Apple)) representing the people.

The fact that Facebook can do any spying on you at all (because it can still track you, on your current Apple device, right now) is because government regulators are dropping the ball. It's not Apple's responsibility, it's not something they're good at, and it's not something that they should be doing.

Re:Apple to allow outside app stores in overhaul spurred by ... by shagie on Tuesday December 13, 2022 @06:37PM (#33977889)
I would contend that so far, Apple has done a better job of ensuring their customers' privacy in the face of other companies that employ dark patterns to try to extract personal information from the device that neither Apple nor Apple's customers allowed them to.

The government, so far, has been rather toothless in terms of ensuring the privacy of people and have issued paltry fines to the companies that amounted to no more than a slap on the wrist and extracting a promise that they'll do better next time (with their hands behind their back and fingers crossed).

The reason I purchase apple devices is because they are the only ones that are taking my privacy seriously.

Government regulators are letting the market decide how valuable customer data is and Apple is saying "it is valuable and our customers value not letting random people getting it." Thus, I am voting with my wallet because in this case, votes for elected officials isn't doing much.

Re:Apple to allow outside app stores in overhaul spurred by ... by smoldesu on Tuesday December 13, 2022 @06:53PM (#33978035)
> Apple is saying "it is valuable and our customers value not letting random people getting it."

Well... https://www.macrumors.com/2022/11/21/icloud-for-windows-corr...

Re:Apple to allow outside app stores in overhaul spurred by ... by heavyset_go on Wednesday December 14, 2022 @01:16AM (#33980587)
App tracking permissions are handled by the OS, it's entirely possible to ship Facebook apps that can't track because they can use the same exact permission system that the existing Facebook iOS app is using.

You don't need the App Store for security, it isn't a dichotomy.

Re:Apple to allow outside app stores in overhaul spurred by ... by waboremo on Tuesday December 13, 2022 @05:21PM (#33976892)
Ignoring Facebook as the example since nobody who cares remotely about tracking is using Facebook.

Then [company] lose marketshare to those who don't care about anything outside of the App Store, and when media outlets and social networks pick up on how [company] app on this third party store tracks so much more information than it used to, even more people will uninstall. It's what we've seen on Android for years, there is a huge reputation factor when it comes to third party app stores. That reputation factor is the reason why F-Droid is the major choice outside of the Play Store.

There is incentive here for app developers to continue to provide solid services. Just not Facebook, as their primary goal is tracking.

Re:Apple to allow outside app stores in overhaul spurred by ... by wlesieutre on Tuesday December 13, 2022 @05:18PM (#33976841)
I'm much more worried about games.

Epic Games is going to put their own storefront on iOS, and it's going to have few if any of the polices for customer protection that the App Store does.

Re:Apple to allow outside app stores in overhaul spurred by ... by lern_too_spel on Tuesday December 13, 2022 @05:33PM (#33977090)
Epic will be able to give you games for free to gain market share, just like the Amazon App Store tried on Android and just like Epic is currently trying on Windows. The horror!

Then an app like F-Droid will come along and offer even more protections than the App Store. Confound it!

For my part, this is a step in the right direction. With a few more fixes, iOS might even become usable enough for me to buy a device that runs it.

Re:Apple to allow outside app stores in overhaul spurred by ... by gamacodre on Tuesday December 13, 2022 @06:12PM (#33977631)
Epic could also, in that case, offer subscriptions that can only be canceled at a storefront in Peoria between 1am and 4am on alternate Tuesdays.
Re:Apple to allow outside app stores in overhaul spurred by ... by smoldesu on Tuesday December 13, 2022 @06:29PM (#33977815)
Epic could already do that. So could Apple, for that matter - but neither of them do. Total whataboutism.
Re:Apple to allow outside app stores in overhaul spurred by ... by wlesieutre on Tuesday December 13, 2022 @07:08PM (#33978178)
Epic currently can’t do that on iPhones in their apps because in-app subscriptions all use Apple’s subscriptions system and can be managed in one place

If you wanted to use an abusive subscription system currently you would have to do it outside the app via a web browser

Re:Apple to allow outside app stores in overhaul spurred by ... by lern_too_spel on Tuesday December 13, 2022 @08:25PM (#33978813)
You would have to do it outside the US, which has many laws that regulate how you can offer subscriptions online. https://www.gunder.com/news/u-s-state-laws-impose-new-obliga...
Re:Apple to allow outside app stores in overhaul spurred by ... by IIAOPSW on Tuesday December 13, 2022 @04:49PM (#33976407)
The fb webpage still exists. No app. No permissions. No problems.

If Facebook makes a change that kills the low-tracking front-ends and insists everyone be tracked more, and in response you grovel to them and put up with their new app, then no amount of EU law or App store law was ever going to protect you from yourself. Apple store polices are a red herring, the problem you're actually highlighting is the adversarial relation you have with fb.

Re:Apple to allow outside app stores in overhaul spurred by ... by andrepew on Tuesday December 13, 2022 @04:44PM (#33976338)
I think this depends on how much friction side-loading ends up being. If I can just click a link and hit "run" like I can on a computer, yeah it could be an issue.

If it requires diving in to Settings or connecting the phone to a computer -- Facebook would never abandon the App Store, friction to using side-loading would be too high.

Re:Apple to allow outside app stores in overhaul spurred by ... by Karunamon on Tuesday December 13, 2022 @05:12PM (#33976762)
That depends entirely on how much friction there is involved in the process. I think you know and Facebook knows that technical hoops at the level of, say, enabling developer menus on Android is a bridge too far for the average tech illiterate user.

Reminder that Epic tried this with Fortnite and eventually went back on the play store. And this was on the platform that had sideloading since day one.

Re:Apple to allow outside app stores in overhaul spurred by ... by CleverLikeAnOx on Tuesday December 13, 2022 @04:20PM (#33975991)
Can't you choose to only use apps on Apple's app store?
Re:Apple to allow outside app stores in overhaul spurred by ... by jkcorrea on Tuesday December 13, 2022 @04:27PM (#33976093)
I believe the implication is there will now be less incentive for app developers to ship for App Store when they can get 80% of the way there with 0% of the “hoops” to jump through (I.e. Apple guidelines)
Re:Apple to allow outside app stores in overhaul spurred by ... by fweimer on Tuesday December 13, 2022 @04:30PM (#33976133)
It's typically one aspect of (mobile) device management on platforms that support side-loading out of the box.
Re:Apple to allow outside app stores in overhaul spurred by ... by nmridul on Tuesday December 13, 2022 @04:25PM (#33976064)
You are also free not to download any app that forces you to sideload and can stay "secure".
Re:Apple to allow outside app stores in overhaul spurred by ... by ben_w on Tuesday December 13, 2022 @04:37PM (#33976234)
I’m free to not work for a company whose ethics or contract I dislike. But only because I got a skill which made me a desirable employee elsewhere.

I’m free to resolve my cancelled flight by either waiting a week for the free alternative or buying a combination of rail and ferry tickets to get me from Stansted to Berlin, but only because I have an understanding boss, enough money, and an app which can get me arbitrary hotels on route because that’s more than a day’s journey unless I plan to sleep in a train station.

I’m free to not remain in a country whose politics or laws I dislike. But only because I got lucky with a few things.

I’m free to not download any app which forces me to sideload. But only because they don’t exist yet on iOS (except for the ways that apparently never counted according to all the people demanding this) — there’s too many ways a theoretical “optional” can become an “actually mandatory”, from laws to employers to defacto monopolies, and those are just the ones I’ve seen examples of in other contexts.