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Re:Secretary Granholm to announce major scientific breakthro... by larryfreeman on Tuesday December 13, 2022 @11:30AM (#33971090)
Wow. Can't believe the cynicism expressed in the comments here.

The big results do not come right away. But they tend to follow an unexpected result, especially one that involves new or state of the art methods.

Bohr's atom was wrong in every conceivable way and yet it is one of the most important scientific breakthroughs of all tine.

In mathematics, even the slightest advance can be monumental if it involves progress in an area using new techniques.

Optimization is a separate problem which depends on a small improvement to unleash the flood gates of research, investment, and let's face it: greed and ambition.

This may turn out to be no improvement at all: just an indication that with enough power and energy, we get a slight energy payback. Or, this may be a method that can be greatly improved. We'll see.

For me, this is why science, math, and engineering are so exciting!

Re:Secretary Granholm to announce major scientific breakthro... by oldgradstudent on Tuesday December 13, 2022 @11:38AM (#33971266)
People distrust science by press conference.

If they have a good result, they should publish it in a peer reviewed journal with all the details.

There were quite a few results in the last two decades that were announced by a press conference and turned out to be completely false.

And I'm not even taking about the details of this specific result.

Press conferences are not

Re:Secretary Granholm to announce major scientific breakthro... by donquixote25 on Tuesday December 13, 2022 @12:08PM (#33971827)
If you were familiar with NIF, you would know that they absolutely will publish the details of the experiment just as they published the details of the experiment that achieved ignition in August 2021: https://journals.aps.org/prl/abstract/10.1103/PhysRevLett.12...
Re:Secretary Granholm to announce major scientific breakthro... by oldgradstudent on Tuesday December 13, 2022 @12:37PM (#33972452)
NASA also publishes. Yet we still got this:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JVSJLUIQrA0

BICEP2 was a respected scientific collaboration, and it ended up like this:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Iasqtm1prlI

The even took a touching video of one of the participants notifying the theorist that predicted the result about their achievement.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZlfIVEy_YOA

Just a two off the top of my mind.

Re:Secretary Granholm to announce major scientific breakthro... by donquixote25 on Tuesday December 13, 2022 @01:25PM (#33973404)
What is your point? That we should distrust everything in a scientific journal? You are shifting the goal post. First, you wanted a publication. Now, you say that would not be enough?

I am inclined to believe a publication unless other plasma physicist come out with a contradictory information.

It's easy to be cynic...

Re:Secretary Granholm to announce major scientific breakthro... by oldgradstudent on Tuesday December 13, 2022 @03:03PM (#33974896)
My point is that people should distrust science by press conference.

The minimum is to wait for the publication.

Even then, scientific skepticism is the rule, not the exception. Especially in fields that are price to hype.

Re:Secretary Granholm to announce major scientific breakthro... by swyx on Tuesday December 13, 2022 @01:11PM (#33973141)
can you elaborate on what was wrong with the NASA thing?
Re:Secretary Granholm to announce major scientific breakthro... by oldgradstudent on Tuesday December 13, 2022 @01:28PM (#33973457)
Re:Secretary Granholm to announce major scientific breakthro... by ASalazarMX on Tuesday December 13, 2022 @12:33PM (#33972377)
This is my pet peeve with the current way of popularizing science, it's just a step apart from "what these scientists found will shock you! News at eleven!". Seems aimed more towards attracting funding than showing a technological breakthrough.
Re:Secretary Granholm to announce major scientific breakthro... by A4ET8a8uTh0 on Tuesday December 13, 2022 @11:59AM (#33971656)
I think I agree and I share the skepticism for several reasons. Especially lately, we face really high levels of distrusts in most institutions. I can maybe see a reason for this approach in the form of "we don't want to just hand over details of this tech to everyone in the world" ( not that is a very good position, but I can at least understand the rationale ), but that is about it.

You can mess with stats and so on ( especially in social fields ), but it may be nigh impossible to present results in energy field that are not replicable and still claim a win.

Are we being distracted from something?

Re:Secretary Granholm to announce major scientific breakthro... by zinekeller on Tuesday December 13, 2022 @11:46AM (#33971407)
> This may turn out to be no improvement at all: just an indication that with enough power and energy, we get a slight energy payback. Or, this may be a method that can be greatly improved. We'll see.

Also two observations to be optimistic: it seems that the sensors were damaged because it exceeded its specifications (so we only know the lower bound of the produced power), and the NIF laser is old (which means it's inefficient). The only (skeptical) worry is that this announcement might lead to another fraud positive investigation event a la Ninov or Schön. I honestly hope not.

Re:Secretary Granholm to announce major scientific breakthro... by throwaway4aday on Tuesday December 13, 2022 @12:19PM (#33972064)
They announced more funding so I hope it's enough for them to seriously upgrade the experiment or to build an entirely new one with much improved gear.
Re:Secretary Granholm to announce major scientific breakthro... by rsj_hn on Tuesday December 13, 2022 @12:01PM (#33971702)
Political appointees aren't the ones who announce technical "breakthroughs", those are announced first in technical journals. Now if it was a diplomatic breakthrough, sure, have the state department announce it. But this isn't how it works for science.
Re:Secretary Granholm to announce major scientific breakthro... by phtrivier on Tuesday December 13, 2022 @11:46AM (#33971410)
Well, if the last few years have taught us anything, it is that cynicism is always warranted.

Basically, the very big and undeniable shit hits you, immediately, right now, with regularity, while the hypothetical bits of maybe good news always are touted as breakthrough even though they will just be "for some times later".

Also, if I read the few cheerful comments correctly, this type of fusion basically means that ITER is a waste of time (so the lesson is, even in science, "internationnal cooperation ? shmooperation".)

Also, it's depressing to know that I'm too dumb to really help in any of the good fights, but that I'm constantly contributing to the shit.

So, yeah, kudos to the researchers, let them keep up the good work, but, maybe, only call it a "breakthrough" and have the press conference when it lights a bulb somewhere ?)

Re:Secretary Granholm to announce major scientific breakthro... by throwaway4aday on Tuesday December 13, 2022 @12:17PM (#33972005)
> Basically, the very big and undeniable shit hits you, immediately, right now, with regularity, while the hypothetical bits of maybe good news always are touted as breakthrough even though they will just be "for some times later".

This just seems like an argument against transparency in research which I think is the wrong direction to take things since it's more helpful to the overall direction of research to publish incremental results so others can build on them sooner. You may be misconstruing the reporting of small, incremental steps as something akin to crying wolf when really you're just seeing all the hard work that goes into solving big problems that eventually produces "very big undeniable shit". It's all part of the same thing, small steps move you towards a big goal, it's hard to get as excited about them as it is about the final product but you can't have the latter without the former.

Re:Secretary Granholm to announce major scientific breakthro... by phtrivier on Tuesday December 13, 2022 @01:01PM (#33972945)
> This just seems like an argument against transparency in research.

Sorry if that sounded this way. As I said, "kudos to the researchers". They probably have good reasons to be happy, and we can cheer them for that - but the expections for the word "breakthrough" to be used for the layman are not met, sorry.

Re:Secretary Granholm to announce major scientific breakthro... by whimsicalism on Tuesday December 13, 2022 @11:56AM (#33971571)
What? Why have the past few years taught you that at all?
Re:Secretary Granholm to announce major scientific breakthro... by dylan604 on Tuesday December 13, 2022 @12:11PM (#33971883)
There have been lots of press releases from universities looking to capitalize on the research done under their "leadership". Never mind that research is usually financed by grants and similar methods. So many of these announcements claim to be stupendous achievements, and they very well may be, but they tend to come with no real way of achieving commercial success. It's not necessarily the fault of the researchers and they did what they set out to do. It's the marketing teams that make it sickening to the point we've all become calloused to this kind of science spam.

Does ignition fall into the same category? We'll see

Re:Secretary Granholm to announce major scientific breakthro... by phtrivier on Tuesday December 13, 2022 @12:08PM (#33971817)
I don't know.

Maybe the pandemic that we completely failed to handle ? The "breakthrough" vaccines / meds that kinda help but don't solve the issues as much as "we got lucky at the mutation lottery this time, but wait until millions of Chinese breed the next variant" ?

The war in Europe that was "never supposed to happen anymore because it would be insane because trade etc..." and yet... just does ?

The energy crisis that will be "solved" by piling coal on top of not reducing emissions ?

The fires and floods that can't be dealt with because it would be "catering to liberal propaganda ?"

Social media burning the minds of a generation, including the mind of the one guy that was kinda inspirational once in a while, but is now going the full "James bond vilain" road ?

Now, don't get me wrong, none of this is "new", "unprecedented", "the end of the world", etc... All of this shall pass, and in the long run, somewhere in the distant future, the small steps will accumulate to create a vague form of "good news".

Someday, an actual fusion reactor will be ready to light a bulb. And then...

...then, you'll get protests and FUDs and corruption and NIMBYism to make sure the plant opens somewhere else.

Re:Secretary Granholm to announce major scientific breakthro... by whimsicalism on Tuesday December 13, 2022 @12:13PM (#33971919)
Humans are biased towards remembering bad events and thinking things are worse than before.

I would suggest reflecting on that, I do not think the things you are naming are unique.

mRNA vaccines were absolutely a breakthrough therapy.

Re:Secretary Granholm to announce major scientific breakthro... by phtrivier on Tuesday December 13, 2022 @12:54PM (#33972808)
> I would suggest reflecting on that, I do not think the things you are naming are unique.

Oh I wholeheartedly agree that it's neither unique, nor new, nor the first or last times we fucked things up. My pronouns are pessimistic/stoic/sleepy.

> mRNA vaccines were absolutely a breakthrough therapy.

...a "breakthrough" that was incorrectly touted a fix for the pandemic, that would also be used to cure all disease, etc... (Again, not by the researchers themselves, but by pretty much everyone else.)

In the end, it definitely bought time for the elderly (and unhealthy), until Omicron actually changed the game.

If we had not got this particular mutation "winning ticket", given the disappointing efficiency of mRNA vaccines on infection and transmission, I'm unfortunately convinced that we would still have to show proof of a recent vaccination to get a coffee. (And since I'm in a particularly bad mood, let's not talk about the long term societal effects of mandates and restrictions and penalization of "not blindly trusting your government", which will reveberate.)

At least, we learnt that "maaaaybe it's worth testing our medecines on the half of humanity that has a functioning uterus" [1], which is a "breakthrough discovery" that almost arrived _after_ nuclear fusion.

[1] https://www.nbcnews.com/health/womens-health/vaccine-trials-...