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Re:No one reads the terms of service. Lawmakers want to fix ... by walterbell on Sunday December 11, 2022 @08:32PM (#33949782)
Any real-world examples of this being achieved in any business domain and jurisdiction?
Re:No one reads the terms of service. Lawmakers want to fix ... by dangrossman on Sunday December 11, 2022 @09:49PM (#33950296)
Yes: the Uniform Commercial Code which is the standard contract that governs virtually all commercial transactions in the United States.

When you buy something at Wal-Mart, your sales contract is the UCC. When you order something online or by phone, and neither of you specify details of things like form of payment, warranties, shipping... those details are filled in by the UCC. And it's called "uniform" because all of the states have individually codified the same default contract into their state laws.

https://www.law.cornell.edu/wex/table_ucc

This uniform contract is also where several warranties arise that people take as a given precisely because the UCC inserts them into every sale that doesn't disclaim them: the warranties of merchantability and fitness for a purpose. Those are your guarantees that when you buy something from someone, the goods will do the thing they're supposed to do and there's nothing significantly wrong with them. It's why you have a right to a refund/return when the thing you bought is broken, or doesn't do what it says it does.

Re:No one reads the terms of service. Lawmakers want to fix ... by walterbell on Sunday December 11, 2022 @11:54PM (#33951026)
Thanks for the reminder. UCC recently introduced Article 12 which covers digital assets like CBDC and cryptocurrency via the category of CER (controllable electronic records). Article 12 says that custody/control of a private key plays a prominent role in seniority of claims against digital assets, including scenarios involving the purchase of possibly-stolen digital assets.

https://www.clearygottlieb.com//news-and-insights/publicatio...

> Article 12 – dealing directly with the acquisition and disposition of interests (including security interests) in “controllable electronic records,” which would include Bitcoin, Ether, and a variety of other digital assets. Under Article 12 and associated amendments to Article 9, a party may perfect a security interest in certain controllable electronic records by obtaining “control” of such records. In addition, Article 12 confers an attribute of negotiability on controllable electronic records – a good faith purchaser for value who obtains control (a “qualifying purchaser”) takes its interest free of conflicting property claims.

Re:No one reads the terms of service. Lawmakers want to fix ... by Danieru on Sunday December 11, 2022 @09:58PM (#33950356)
This is also why releasing code without a license is dangerous. Without a license your code defaults to the UGC and thus you become liable for "fit for purpose". Instead even basic open source licenses must disclaim the default clauses if the UGC like warranty and fit for purpose.
Re:No one reads the terms of service. Lawmakers want to fix ... by musicale on Sunday December 11, 2022 @10:16PM (#33950452)
I'm not sure about software that is given away for free, but "fit for purpose" liability certainly sounds like a sensible idea for any software that is sold, whether or not it includes free or open source components.

This makes even more sense as software becomes a key component of more products.

Re:No one reads the terms of service. Lawmakers want to fix ... by saagarjha on Sunday December 11, 2022 @10:29PM (#33950533)
If you don’t license your code then other people don’t default to getting the rights to use it.
Re:No one reads the terms of service. Lawmakers want to fix ... by labster on Sunday December 11, 2022 @11:26PM (#33950863)
WTFPL has an interesting niche that grants rights to use code for any purpose, but includes no disclaimers.
Re:No one reads the terms of service. Lawmakers want to fix ... by Ekaros on Monday December 12, 2022 @05:08AM (#33952947)
At this point the whole thing feels perverse. Almost no software guarantees "fit for purpose". It really should be other way around at this point. The license would have to say it establishes warranty if it doesn't there is no such warranty or fit for purpose.
Re:No one reads the terms of service. Lawmakers want to fix ... by AnthonyMouse on Sunday December 11, 2022 @10:11PM (#33950426)
This also implies the drawback of doing it this way: The UCC is created by private entities and then legislatures are pressured to adopt it as-is "for uniformity" even though they were the ones elected to set government policy and not the drafters of the UCC.
Re:No one reads the terms of service. Lawmakers want to fix ... by User23 on Sunday December 11, 2022 @10:55PM (#33950674)
> This also implies the drawback of doing it this way: The UCC is created by private entities and then legislatures are pressured to adopt it as-is "for uniformity" even though they were the ones elected to set government policy and not the drafters of the UCC.

The schoolhouse rock version of how a bill becomes law is basically pure fiction at this point. Certainly at the federal level I'm not sure a single so-called legislator is competent to draft a bill. Occasionally they will have their staff draft some showboat bill that will likely never even pass committee, but almost all the bills that become law are drafted by some interest group or other, who then hire lobbyists to find a "legislator" willing to rubber stamp it.

It's surprising that it's not more of a well known fact that the USA isn't even remotely a real popularly representative democracy, given how completely obvious it is to all but the most casual observer. Princeton even published a study on the subject[1].

[1] https://scholar.princeton.edu/sites/default/files/mgilens/fi...

Re:No one reads the terms of service. Lawmakers want to fix ... by astrange on Monday December 12, 2022 @02:09AM (#33951812)
> Princeton even published a study on the subject[1].

And that study is false; what it actually shows is that elites and average citizens agree on most things that pass, not that only elites approve of them.

https://www.vox.com/2016/5/9/11502464/gilens-page-oligarchy-...

Remember, when you come across some cynical information that shows the average person is a sheeple/NPC/etc, it’s not true! Average people are usually right.

Re:No one reads the terms of service. Lawmakers want to fix ... by User23 on Monday December 12, 2022 @09:23AM (#33954878)
Average people observably have many of their opinions assigned to them by elites. Take Ukraine for example. I assure you that if our elites favored Russia, the “average people” would all have Russian flags in their profiles.

In those cases where average people and elites do disagree, such as border security, the elites reliably get their way.

And yes I’ve seen the shoddy attempts to refute the Princeton study. They’re unconvincing.

Re:No one reads the terms of service. Lawmakers want to fix ... by tty74 on Sunday December 11, 2022 @08:40PM (#33949854)
Yep, that’s how it works in Germany. There are laws that cover many cases for, i.e., lease contracts, online shopping, digital services. The terms of service just cover the specifics and cannot contain “surprising” or “unusual” things. The general idea is that a normal consumer neither have the knowledge nor the time to understand in depth legalese.

As one example, which is a quite similar case, the standard lease contract for apartments in Germany is 4 pages. In the USA I’ve had between 21 and 27 pages so far.

Re:No one reads the terms of service. Lawmakers want to fix ... by 015a on Sunday December 11, 2022 @08:56PM (#33949964)
In the US: they are long, but in my experience they're also extremely usual. Every apartment I've rented (5 in my city) has used the exact same template; with some blank lines and checkboxes where they write in "You'll pay this much in rent" "for this long" "pets are allowed" "garage: n/a" "satellite dish: n/a" etc.
Re:No one reads the terms of service. Lawmakers want to fix ... by ethbr0 on Sunday December 11, 2022 @09:03PM (#33950005)
The point being: there are no consequences for a landlord slipping one extreme condition into that template. Maybe on page 17.

And, as long as it doesn't breach any explicit laws, that condition is equally enforceable.

The German system above appears to specifically address that issue with US law.

Re:No one reads the terms of service. Lawmakers want to fix ... by thaumasiotes on Sunday December 11, 2022 @09:28PM (#33950148)
> And, as long as it doesn't breach any explicit laws, that condition is equally enforceable.

That isn't true; if the court concludes that no reasonable person would ever have knowingly agreed, it will find that the condition is unenforceable. It's a real standard, but I don't recall the relevant technical terms.

Obviously it's hard to meet that standard, but breaching an explicit law is very much not a requirement for unenforceability.

edit:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Williams_v._Walker-Thomas_Furn....

> when a party of little bargaining power, and hence little real choice, signs a commercially unreasonable contract with little or no knowledge of its terms, it is hardly likely that his consent, or even an objective manifestation of his consent, was ever given to all the terms.

> In such a case the usual rule that the terms of the agreement are not to be questioned should be abandoned and the court should consider whether the terms of the contract are so unfair that enforcement should be withheld.

Re:No one reads the terms of service. Lawmakers want to fix ... by ethbr0 on Sunday December 11, 2022 @09:41PM (#33950240)
Absolutely, but there are a few points that render this ineffective as a market mechanism in our current reality.

Point 1: You're probably yourselves vs a professional management company / large property owner. They obviously bring more resources and experience to a legal case than you do, in addition to simply having more time to engage in one.

Point 2: That's assuming you can even take the case to court, and didn't sign away any disputes into arbitration.

Re:No one reads the terms of service. Lawmakers want to fix ... by thaumasiotes on Sunday December 11, 2022 @09:47PM (#33950282)
> Point 2:

I don't think that matters at all; if you have a term in your contract that a court will find unconscionable, an arbitrator is... shall we say, extremely likely to find the same thing.

You're also free to haul the arbitrator into court if they make an egregious ruling. The fact that you were subject to binding arbitration and the arbitrator awarded your firstborn son to the company isn't going to be any more convincing to a judge than the alternative fact that your contract clearly states you're giving up your firstborn son to the company.

Re:No one reads the terms of service. Lawmakers want to fix ... by dragonwriter on Sunday December 11, 2022 @10:31PM (#33950544)
> You're probably yourselves vs a professional management company / large property owner.

That actually works against them in court, especially in the particular scenario being discussed.

https://www.law.cornell.edu/wex/adhesion_contract#

Re:No one reads the terms of service. Lawmakers want to fix ... by kube-system on Sunday December 11, 2022 @09:55PM (#33950324)
Anyone who says what "US law" is, regarding property rental contracts, is either generalizing or doesn't know what they're talking about. Landlord/tenant law is one thing that varies quite a bit from state to state and it is mostly out of scope of federal law.

And furthermore, it's a common misconception that something is 'legal' to stipulate just because they've seen it in their contracts before. People put unenforceable crap in contracts all the time because 9/10 people will just believe it's enforceable and go along with it.

Re:No one reads the terms of service. Lawmakers want to fix ... by msla on Monday December 12, 2022 @04:03AM (#33952516)
I am an American, I went to American public high school, and not one in a particularly rich town. (So there, people who think American schools are all junk.) I did, however, get a class in basic business law, including contracts, which I think should be mandatory for all high school students, and it would cover precisely this kind of thing.
Re:No one reads the terms of service. Lawmakers want to fix ... by toyg on Monday December 12, 2022 @05:49AM (#33953265)
> I think should be mandatory for all high school students

Notice how anything related to wealth management (contracts, financial concepts and practices, etc) is rarely (if ever) included in compulsory schooling.

This is by design.

Re:No one reads the terms of service. Lawmakers want to fix ... by kube-system on Monday December 12, 2022 @01:25PM (#33958192)
36 states require a civics course, which typically include personal finance topics. It was covered when I was in school decades ago.

https://www.edweek.org/teaching-learning/data-most-states-re...

Re:No one reads the terms of service. Lawmakers want to fix ... by msla on Monday December 12, 2022 @10:25AM (#33955606)
Yes: People think school should be more about learning the "traditional" subjects and get angry when schools deviate.
Re:No one reads the terms of service. Lawmakers want to fix ... by toyg on Monday December 12, 2022 @10:39AM (#33955810)
No, that's because the ruling classes can integrate that knowledge in their own way later on, whereas others cannot. This coupled very well with the original aristocratic pretension that "material" subjects should be considered inferior.

So we ended up with Western education systems that produce intellectuals who conceptually despise wealth management, ensuring education remains thoroughly detached from the actual levers of power. That suits rulers just fine.

Re:No one reads the terms of service. Lawmakers want to fix ... by msla on Monday December 12, 2022 @02:48PM (#33959237)
You have a nice little castle of theory built on air.
Re:No one reads the terms of service. Lawmakers want to fix ... by pclmulqdq on Sunday December 11, 2022 @09:47PM (#33950281)
The extreme condition you are talking about often will be unenforceable. It doesn't stop people from trying, though.

Generally, contracts on the US where there is one party who writes them and another party who doesn't get to edit them (leases, employment contracts, etc.) have a lot of case law about what can and can't be enforced on the party who doesn't have authorship control. Contacts where both parties are writing them have a lot more freedom to screw a participant, but also generally savvier participants.

Re:No one reads the terms of service. Lawmakers want to fix ... by 015a on Sunday December 11, 2022 @09:51PM (#33950309)
Fair; but my point is more-so, if there was a Page 27 at the end that inserted some unusual terms, it'd be really obvious because it wouldn't look like all the templated stuff before it, and anyone reasonable would catch it. Its also a lot less tiring to read through those preceding 26 pages because its all templated, and you're really just reading the custom notes and checkboxes and such.

I don't feel its unreasonable to read through a dozen or two pages of contracts for something like a rental lease that will eat up 30% of your income for the next year; and I've never felt that my city/state is in dire need of improving the situation. The problem with online service terms is more-so that: they aren't standardized, they all say different things, they oftentimes claim things that aren't legally enforceable, they're usually a UI afterthought... they're just bad. We do need some kind of legislation for those. I don't feel that requiring a summary is the answer.

Re:No one reads the terms of service. Lawmakers want to fix ... by eloff on Sunday December 11, 2022 @09:36PM (#33950201)
My brother got zinged with this. "You must repaint the house after moving out." He wasn't even there for a year.

He's a good, law abiding fellow, so he did it. It was the last thing he needed to deal with on top of all the stress of moving. I would have just ignored it, let them take me to court if they want.

Re:No one reads the terms of service. Lawmakers want to fix ... by lodovic on Monday December 12, 2022 @09:45AM (#33955119)
I would have painted everything purple. Including the roof, ceilings, door knobs, everything.
Re:No one reads the terms of service. Lawmakers want to fix ... by maxerickson on Sunday December 11, 2022 @09:53PM (#33950313)
Does the contract stipulate to the satisfaction of the other party? Seems like it's terribly arbitrary if there aren't really specific terms about what paint to use, what color to use, they quality of the surface, etc.
Re:No one reads the terms of service. Lawmakers want to fix ... by Invictus0 on Sunday December 11, 2022 @09:25PM (#33950126)
I don't pity anyone that can't be bothered to read their lease before signing. If we can't read 30 page contracts as a society then the contracts are not the problem, we are.
Re:No one reads the terms of service. Lawmakers want to fix ... by kube-system on Sunday December 11, 2022 @09:49PM (#33950301)
100% of people need housing but well <100% of people can read and fully understand a legal document. Contracts don't bind society, they bind individual people.
Re:No one reads the terms of service. Lawmakers want to fix ... by version_five on Sunday December 11, 2022 @09:57PM (#33950341)
And it's not just about being able to read and understand. It's power dynamics. How often are you in a position to negotiate the boilerplate contract that gets put in front of you when you're doing most normal stuff. It's "sign here and here and here, etc", not "read this over and come back with your edits". I negotiate contracts as part of my job, and we go back and forth and make sure parties agreed and understand. As someone else pointed out, such contracts almost certainly should be enforceable, even with unusual terms, because they were expressly co-written and agreed to. An uneditable document drafted by and in favor of one party is not the same thing at all, regardless of the signer's capacity to understand
Re:No one reads the terms of service. Lawmakers want to fix ... by kube-system on Monday December 12, 2022 @01:33AM (#33951609)
Yes, this is important, and the law generally considers this, and it will treat B2B contracts differently than B2C contracts which are more frequently one-sided. B2B contracts often have more leeway to be enforceable as-written, but B2C contracts often have explicit limitations in the form of "consumer protection laws" or "tenants rights", etc.
Re:No one reads the terms of service. Lawmakers want to fix ... by rufflez on Monday December 12, 2022 @12:29AM (#33951224)
I’m afraid I disagree… 30 pages for mortgage, and then all the terms of service for the software services that you use, plus the credit cards, websites visited and so on… this becomes a full time job for a legally illiterate person and is the definition of “setup to fail”… hence the term “fine print”
Re:No one reads the terms of service. Lawmakers want to fix ... by ethbr0 on Sunday December 11, 2022 @09:39PM (#33950219)
I'm as much a fan of caveat emptor as any libertarian, but that doesn't mean we can't make it easier.

Parsing 20+ pages of legalese, when it could be shipped as a diff instead, is simply inefficient.

Re:No one reads the terms of service. Lawmakers want to fix ... by nitwit005 on Sunday December 11, 2022 @09:15PM (#33950067)
A lot of website privacy policies are just people filling out privacy policy generator sites. They might as well just directly show the boxes checked and fields filled out, instead of the output document.
Re:No one reads the terms of service. Lawmakers want to fix ... by dragonwriter on Sunday December 11, 2022 @10:01PM (#33950368)
> Every apartment I've rented (5 in my city) has used the exact same template.

Given the number of different templates floating around tailored to most individual states, that’s either an extreme coincidence, or there is shared ownership, management, or legal representation between the different apartment complexes.

Re:No one reads the terms of service. Lawmakers want to fix ... by SoftTalker on Sunday December 11, 2022 @08:54PM (#33949946)
When I lived in Chicago, there was a standard residential apartment lease that to my understanding was written by the city. If you were leasing residential property in the city, you had to use that lease, and you could not change it.

I won't swear that this is correct, or that it still works that way, but that was my impression.

I'm also sure that a lot of people still rented apartments on handshake, unwritten, or under-the-table deals for a variety of reasons.

Re:No one reads the terms of service. Lawmakers want to fix ... by texasbigdata on Sunday December 11, 2022 @10:54PM (#33950670)
Re:No one reads the terms of service. Lawmakers want to fix ... by rlpb on Sunday December 11, 2022 @09:08PM (#33950024)
More like the opposite of what you asked, but a car park with a traditional pay machine didn't have much in the way of terms and conditions. Now that they have apps, suddenly there are pages and pages. But they managed before, so they should be able to manage now.

I mention this because it's sort of an example of it "having been achieved" in the past, albeit not in the lawmaking sense.

Re:No one reads the terms of service. Lawmakers want to fix ... by GuB-42 on Sunday December 11, 2022 @09:42PM (#33950248)
I am a landlord in France, and from what I've seen, rental contracts are essentially not worth the paper they are written on.

Either what you put in the contract is a law, so it is effective no matter if you write it or not, or it isn't and in this case, there is a high chance it is considered abusive and therefore not legally enforceable. In fact, you might as well not write anything at all! If someone lives on someone's property and pays money in exchange, there is an implicit contract with standard clauses between the two parties. I think the only additional right a written contract can give a landlord is to increase the rent, but by no more than the inflation rate.

Re:No one reads the terms of service. Lawmakers want to fix ... by 4RealFreedom on Monday December 12, 2022 @12:05AM (#33951084)
I don't know if I like that or hate it. Having the simplicity that everything is equal is great. What about pet clauses, garage access, and such? Seems like those would need to be respected.
Re:No one reads the terms of service. Lawmakers want to fix ... by zaarn on Monday December 12, 2022 @06:57AM (#33953720)
I'm in Germany not France but Pet Clauses aren't generally valid.

Garage access is only an issue if you pay for it. If you pay for a garage, the landlord has to ensure you have access and depending on the type of contract, ensure you are the only one with access (re; shared vs solo garages).

The Pet Clause thing only concerns big pets. Anything the size of a normal house cat or smaller (except actual house cats and exotic/unusual pets) requires no special permission. If larger pets are banned, this is only valid if there is a contract condition to allow the tenant to get special permission to have a cat or dog. A total and general ban of all pets is considered too disadvantageous for the tenant and thus not allowed. When asking for permission, the denial must have an explanation attached. "Pet can cause damage" isn't allowed for example, since the owner could just buy a pet insurance to cover any claims. Noise and dirt aren't either, since the landlord can require the owner to take care of that. Basically the explanation of why you deny a pet has to be something that the owner doesn't have the power to change easily, such as that the landlord is allergic and living in the flat above you or similar things.

This kinda stuff is usually added at the end of the template contract, there isn'T a lot to read so they tend to be obvious.

Re:No one reads the terms of service. Lawmakers want to fix ... by GuB-42 on Monday December 12, 2022 @09:53AM (#33955226)
It is essentially the same in France. Pet clauses are generally invalid, and the tenant is responsible for whatever damage or disturbance the animal may cause.
Re:No one reads the terms of service. Lawmakers want to fix ... by barbariangrunge on Sunday December 11, 2022 @09:03PM (#33950000)
You never used to need a lease to rent an apartment. Also, purchasing is a form of implied standard contract
Re:No one reads the terms of service. Lawmakers want to fix ... by Animats on Sunday December 11, 2022 @09:50PM (#33950305)
Medicare supplement policies. Those are rigidly standardized. Insurers hate that, because all they can do is compete on price.