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Re:Be wary of imitating high-status people who can afford to... by steveBK123 on Sunday December 11, 2022 @02:02PM (#33946262)
Yes this is very well put, you really hit the nail on the head here on the sort of reverse bell curve of signaling..

For the very wealthy.. If you show enough interest in something to make signaling purchases, it's expected to be "up to snuff" .. this can mean very very high expense or high esotericness.

So that might mean a $200k sports car, or it might mean some uncommon though inexpensive limited production vintage vehicle even though it may be of reasonable price, the time & effort you took to acquire & maintain it is a signal of taste.

Otherwise you'd be better off signaling complete disinterest with a very vanilla middle of the road options.

On menswear I think to your example, you could say you'd be better off not wearing a suit than in wearing a $200 Men's Wearhouse suit. To that end, these days, the type of people you tend to see in suits are either security / front desk staff or very senior corporate executives. Those in the middle have enough labor negotiating power to not be required to wear a suit, but probably not the desire/wealth to spend $2k on a properly tailored suit.

Re:Be wary of imitating high-status people who can afford to... by SoftTalker on Sunday December 11, 2022 @02:57PM (#33946843)
Very senior/wealthy people can get away with whatever they want. It's why Zuckerberg can look like a total slob at Facebook (notice he still wore a suit while testifying to Congress though).

If a senior executive wore a $200 suit to work, nobody would say a word.

Re:Be wary of imitating high-status people who can afford to... by Reebz on Sunday December 11, 2022 @04:29PM (#33947745)
Zuckerberg wears $800 tshirts amongst other carefully selected pieces of his wardrobe. He isn’t rummaging through a local Target for a basic tee and jeans. I think this is a good example of countersignal interpretation!
Re:Be wary of imitating high-status people who can afford to... by csomar on Tuesday December 13, 2022 @08:49PM (#33979009)
$800 tshirts have the same fabric as a Uniqlo tshirt (or maybe worse?).

> amongst other carefully selected pieces of his wardrobe

so if it was not that carefully selected, he'd look like a homeless?

Re:Be wary of imitating high-status people who can afford to... by seattle_spring on Sunday December 11, 2022 @04:21PM (#33947666)
> Zuckerberg can look like a total slob at Facebook

Huh, custom tshirts and well fitting jeans counts as "looking like a total slob" now? Fwiw I'd rather work with / for someone that dresses like that over formal any day of the week.

Re:Be wary of imitating high-status people who can afford to... by nobodyandproud on Sunday December 11, 2022 @07:25PM (#33949269)
Yes.

I like t-shirts and jeans and never want to go back to suits and ties but..

When I went to Japan a decade ago, I realized just how informal and slovenly American working attire had become.

Re:Be wary of imitating high-status people who can afford to... by cercatrova on Sunday December 11, 2022 @08:12PM (#33949643)
Notice how that's all for show too. Relatedly, Japanese people often don't work harder than Americans, they simply stay at the office longer. I also prefer what lack of formal attire signals: in Japanese workplaces, the more senior, the more respect for their ideas, regardless of whether the idea is actually better. Formal attire legitimizes their seniority but I'd rather have a meritocratic system of vetting ideas, and informality signals that too.
Re:Be wary of imitating high-status people who can afford to... by nobodyandproud on Sunday December 11, 2022 @09:32PM (#33950178)
This is true.

Though I think many imitate regardless of the tribe/workforce/culture in order to fit in.

Look at the schools. It’s informal but there are definitely trends and fashions to follow in order to relate.

Just a thought, but the change in attire, then, is to create some formal distance between management and direct reports.

Re:Be wary of imitating high-status people who can afford to... by astrange on Sunday December 11, 2022 @09:20PM (#33950100)
Japanese suits/uniforms are often pretty cheap (and look that way) - thus the low end “recruit suit”. They are tailored, but the level of body-fitting they are would be actively unacceptable in the US. By which I mean, everyone would think you’re gay.

On the other hand, Japan is the home of expensive high end recreations of American casual clothes - look up Take Ivy, BEAMS, nice selvedge jeans, etc.

Re:Be wary of imitating high-status people who can afford to... by nobodyandproud on Sunday December 11, 2022 @09:43PM (#33950256)
> On the other hand, Japan is the home of expensive high end recreations of American casual clothes - look up Take Ivy, BEAMS, nice selvedge jeans, etc.

I remember some acquaintances running a decent side business buying and then selling vintage American clothes back in Japan (shipping or flying back).

This was back in the 1990s so I believe it.

(it also brought back some fond memories)

Re:Be wary of imitating high-status people who can afford to... by thefringthing on Monday December 12, 2022 @12:52PM (#33957749)
When Japanese enthusiasts scoured American thrift stores for the last remaining stock of vintage American denim, it supposedly constituted the largest ever transfer of clothing from the USA to Japan, exceeding even the postwar used clothing charity drives.
Re:Be wary of imitating high-status people who can afford to... by fennecfoxy on Tuesday December 13, 2022 @06:27AM (#33967417)
>By which I mean, everyone would think you’re gay. Is this really true, though? Plenty of straight dudes wear tight fitting clothing, especially if they work out.

Perhaps it's just a higher ratio of gay guys that work out vs straight guys that work out that's skewed your views.

Re:Be wary of imitating high-status people who can afford to... by rayiner on Sunday December 11, 2022 @10:08PM (#33950406)
But the point is everyone looks like they’re trying to conform to the dress code. Much better than America, where just when you think it’s hit bottom, people plumb the depths further. (Most recently, by way of hair, tattoos, earrings on men, etc.)
Re:Be wary of imitating high-status people who can afford to... by tptacek on Sunday December 11, 2022 @10:46PM (#33950633)
I have rings in both my ears and sleeve tattoos on both arms. What does that say about me?
Re:Be wary of imitating high-status people who can afford to... by michalu on Monday December 12, 2022 @08:56AM (#33954633)
That you are a barista at Starbucks or someone with self image issues. On a more serious note such people appear to me as conformists. Everyone has tattoos today. They buy them like burgers at McDonalds. In the past you'd eaen them in navy, army or prison. It said something about the person - it doesn't say anything about you now. Except perhaps that you want to seen in certain way without living it. E.g. look like a rockstar without being one. Why take the risks of adventurous life you can just buy a tatoo with the money from your IT job. Just another form pf consumption. Of course all depends on tatoo, I'm talking about your typical tatooed dude from western country.
Re:Be wary of imitating high-status people who can afford to... by tptacek on Monday December 12, 2022 @11:50AM (#33956921)
I like that it means both that I have self-image issues and that I'm a conformist.
Re:Be wary of imitating high-status people who can afford to... by mrguyorama on Monday December 12, 2022 @02:01PM (#33958691)
What I've learned from my girlfriend is that you enjoy having a needle put in you, especially if it's large enough to feel.
Re:Be wary of imitating high-status people who can afford to... by tptacek on Monday December 12, 2022 @03:33PM (#33959861)
Hmm. No. It's definitely not that.
Re:Be wary of imitating high-status people who can afford to... by namaria on Monday December 12, 2022 @07:29AM (#33953967)
Twenty years ago those would signal strongly that you don't depend on or respect social conventions. Now, that you have a lot of disposable income.
Re:Be wary of imitating high-status people who can afford to... by 7speter on Monday December 12, 2022 @04:37PM (#33960778)
Twenty years ago there was a law and order episode where someone said that even school teachers got tattoos then :)
Re:Be wary of imitating high-status people who can afford to... by namaria on Thursday December 15, 2022 @03:35AM (#33996766)
Ah yes 20 years ago is not the 90s anymore I keep forgetting...
Re:Be wary of imitating high-status people who can afford to... by onetimeusename on Monday December 12, 2022 @12:20AM (#33951167)
that you will live a long life and success is ahead
Re:Be wary of imitating high-status people who can afford to... by sprkwd on Monday December 12, 2022 @02:20AM (#33951880)
Means you have spent a lot of money on pain.
Re:Be wary of imitating high-status people who can afford to... by tptacek on Monday December 12, 2022 @02:43AM (#33952015)
That and the dog from "Duck Hunt".
Re:Be wary of imitating high-status people who can afford to... by mc32 on Sunday December 11, 2022 @11:12PM (#33950774)
I think it means you like teasing people.
Re:Be wary of imitating high-status people who can afford to... by rayiner on Monday December 12, 2022 @08:49AM (#33954566)
I’m sure it’s a Samoan or Celtic ancestry thing.
Re:Be wary of imitating high-status people who can afford to... by idlewords on Monday December 12, 2022 @06:09PM (#33961821)
"I work in IT"
Re:Be wary of imitating high-status people who can afford to... by tptacek on Monday December 12, 2022 @07:12PM (#33962530)
Kinda, right?
Re:Be wary of imitating high-status people who can afford to... by wglb on Sunday December 11, 2022 @10:58PM (#33950685)
I was a little surprised to see some lawyers at a recent medium-sized company who had tattoos. And not just small butterflies.
Re:Be wary of imitating high-status people who can afford to... by SyzygistSix on Monday December 12, 2022 @09:07AM (#33954716)
We shouldn't be. Barring dominance by some fundamentalist group, be it religious, cultural, or political, humans have had piercings and tattoos. I like that fact that it is no longer countercultural to adopt these basic human expressions.
Re:Be wary of imitating high-status people who can afford to... by rayiner on Monday December 12, 2022 @09:26AM (#33954915)
Tattoos are frowned upon in most cultures in the world. It's not just "fundamentalists" (whatever that means). And who cares about "human expression?" If you need to "express" yourself, write a book or something where the rest of us don't have to look at it.

America would be a lot better if people thought less about how to “express” themselves, and more about how to keep the social environment around them tidy and orderly.

Re:Be wary of imitating high-status people who can afford to... by tptacek on Monday December 12, 2022 @12:46PM (#33957667)
It's true, I'm expressing support for the Yakuza, and helping them tear down the social fabric of western society. That's been the left's plan all along.
[dead]
Re:Be wary of imitating high-status people who can afford to... by tptacek on Monday December 12, 2022 @02:30PM (#33959050)
It's good to feel like I'm a part of something larger than myself.
Re:Be wary of imitating high-status people who can afford to... by tedunangst on Monday December 12, 2022 @04:33PM (#33960703)
This is how we dismantle western civilization. Brick by brick.
Re:Be wary of imitating high-status people who can afford to... by tptacek on Monday December 12, 2022 @05:02PM (#33961053)
I'll man the barricades to defend my Castlevania raven from the forces of societal stability.
Re:Be wary of imitating high-status people who can afford to... by seattle_spring on Tuesday December 13, 2022 @06:01PM (#33977484)
If anyone is showing that they have problems in this thread, it's definitely not the people with tattoos.
Re:Be wary of imitating high-status people who can afford to... by thefringthing on Monday December 12, 2022 @12:47PM (#33957689)
Well, it's only in the context of the radical casualization of menswear since the mid-60s that jeans and a t-shirt can be seen as stylish. When men first started wearing this outfit, it was considered rebellious in part because it was so obviously inappropriate to wear in public. The t-shirt originated as a military undergarment and jeans as mining equipment.
Re:Be wary of imitating high-status people who can afford to... by steveBK123 on Sunday December 11, 2022 @03:07PM (#33946922)
True, but they are more likely to wear a $400 hoodie than a $200 suit.

Outside SBF, even the executives dressing "casually" are still doing so expensively.

Re:Be wary of imitating high-status people who can afford to... by hammock on Sunday December 11, 2022 @05:02PM (#33948046)
If a sr exec wore a $200 suit to work, it would be noticed. Maybe in a warren buffet folksy sort of way. How they tell defense attorneys not to dress too flashy
Re:Be wary of imitating high-status people who can afford to... by bbarnett on Sunday December 11, 2022 @05:47PM (#33948435)
(notice he still wore a suit while testifying to Congress though).

Don't like the guy, his company, his policies. And I tend to repect our elected officals more than most.

But the idea of showing up dressed in a t-shirt and jeans, and/or a hoodie, make me smile broadly.

Re:Be wary of imitating high-status people who can afford to... by jhauris on Sunday December 11, 2022 @09:36PM (#33950202)
You may enjoy Dee Snider's speech to the Senate: https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=S0Vyr1TylTE
Re:Be wary of imitating high-status people who can afford to... by bbarnett on Tuesday December 13, 2022 @04:14AM (#33966434)
Amusing, thanks. Doubly amusing that the garb was a strategy.