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Re:I liberate the ending to Minecraft from Microsoft and giv... by asperous on Thursday December 08, 2022 @02:35AM (#33905262)
If he actually received $20,000 that still seems like a lot? Especially in a world where freelance writing is $0.01-$0.50 (pre-GPT3). And it sounds like at the time it was good money for the artist.

I get that he feels like he was given a small amount relative to the great success of Minecraft, but I would hope he also realizes that it was risk free cash.

Re:I liberate the ending to Minecraft from Microsoft and giv... by nmfisher on Thursday December 08, 2022 @03:01AM (#33905470)
That was my reaction too, 20,000 (euros) seems quite decent for a tiny freelance engagement, and just skimming the contract, that all seems bog-standard, too.

If he didn't think the money was fair, he shouldn't have accepted it. I expect Mojang would have simply pulled the plug and gone with someone else if he had done so.

This really just smacks of sour grapes that Mojang was sold for squillions and the author feels entitled to some of that. Legalities aside (the absence of aa signed contract may be a problem) but I don't feel he is morally entitled to anything more than he's already received.

Re:I liberate the ending to Minecraft from Microsoft and giv... by wheels on Thursday December 08, 2022 @03:12AM (#33905551)
Indeed. This was a great deal for the writer. He wasn't part of the team. He was a contract writer. €20k is a lot of dosh for a few pages of text. It smacks of trivializing all of the work of the people who spent months working on it because he feels like he didn't get a big enough piece of the pie. It sounds like that got lost in the fog of war, because otherwise they'd just have said, "Ok, that's enough. We'll just hire someone else for half the price."

I honestly suspect the €20k figure was, "Let's offer him a big enough number so that we don't have to be distracted by negotiating this." And then began the long-winded and self-important wall-of-text emails.

Re:I liberate the ending to Minecraft from Microsoft and giv... by Gigachad on Thursday December 08, 2022 @04:24AM (#33905997)
Yeah looking at the contract, it seems exactly like the kind of thing you’d want to have for content in a game. It removes all complexities as you may need to edit or do whatever to it years later.

Imagine if all the developers expected to both be paid to write code and still own the rights to the code.

Re:I liberate the ending to Minecraft from Microsoft and giv... by mananaysiempre on Thursday December 08, 2022 @05:40AM (#33906466)
> Imagine if all the developers expected to both be paid to write code and still own the rights to the code.

Developers are accustomed to giving up all artistic agency and authorship, and those who can’t bring themselves to do so give up on being developers. (I’m partly in the latter category.) Thankfully, that isn’t (yet?) as ubiquitous among writers.

Re:I liberate the ending to Minecraft from Microsoft and giv... by Gigachad on Thursday December 08, 2022 @06:34AM (#33906788)
What other profession expects to be paid for producing work and expects to keep the result of the work?

The guy got £20,000 for some pages of babel. He should be elated.

Re:I liberate the ending to Minecraft from Microsoft and giv... by mananaysiempre on Thursday December 08, 2022 @07:48AM (#33907299)
> What other profession expects to be paid for producing work and expects to keep the result of the work?

The definition of “keep” in that sentence is the principal question of copyright, isn’t?

That is to say, if I produce a physical object at someone’s behest, I have to completely give up on the result in order for them to have unrestricted use of it, for reasons of physics. There are no such reasons for texts, computer programs, and so on, unless imposed artificially by law.

(I’m not going to call something good just because it’s the natural state of things, but neither am I going to automatically consider something reasonable just because it’s the law.)

For example, if I’m employed as a teacher, a good portion of my work is producing notes to give lectures from or to hand out to students, so that’s partly what I’m being paid for. Yet it’d be pretty normal for me to then publish them in some form, for money or not, without my employer trying to lay claim to them.

Even a developer who is employed by virtue of his experience in databases is generally not precluded from publishing a book summarizing that same experience for others to use.

> The guy got £20,000 for some pages of [babble]. He should be elated.

I don’t know anything about his situation, but a freelancer’s budgeting always has to account for the time spent waiting or searching for the next gig; being paid fabulously for a job that occupies your every waking hour for a month, then spending the next two sucking on your thumb (and recovering from the overtaxing sprint you’ve just had) is pretty normal, and on average the money ends up much less abundant than you’d guess just looking at the numbers. (Unless you’re Brandon Sanderson and can finish a novel a year, I guess.)

Re:I liberate the ending to Minecraft from Microsoft and giv... by ghaff on Thursday December 08, 2022 @02:16PM (#33911906)
I think a lot of people here are probably used to consulting/contracting being somewhat extended work towards completing a work order.

But there is definitely a lot of consulting where you're working more or less full-time to stay current, market yourself, etc. and when you do get work the day rate may be eye-watering--but those jobs may be short and/or infrequent.

When I was an industry analyst, in addition to our regular subscription clients, we did present at company events, did a la carte consulting days, and things like that for which we got about $10K per day. But we didn't have a lot of those.

Re:I liberate the ending to Minecraft from Microsoft and giv... by zimpenfish on Thursday December 08, 2022 @11:28AM (#33909762)
> What other profession expects to be paid for producing work and expects to keep the result of the work?

There are, I believe, a non-negligible number of companies who will write software for you, to a specification, and grant you a (sometimes non-exclusive) license to use that software but absolutely will not give you the copyright. Pretty sure there's a lot of IT companies, for example, that UKGOV contract to which do this.

Re:I liberate the ending to Minecraft from Microsoft and giv... by Gigachad on Thursday December 08, 2022 @03:55PM (#33913265)
Because they are exploiting incompetent government processes.

Get the tax payer to pay you to build a product and then continue looting the public to rent it out perpetually.

Re:I liberate the ending to Minecraft from Microsoft and giv... by bee_rider on Thursday December 08, 2022 @09:46AM (#33908368)
Actually, how does this compare to, for example, architects? They must at least sometimes keep the ability to show off their designs, to build up their portfolios, right?
Re:I liberate the ending to Minecraft from Microsoft and giv... by jameshart on Thursday December 08, 2022 @01:53PM (#33911590)
Go hire a photographer some time and prepare to be surprised.
Re:I liberate the ending to Minecraft from Microsoft and giv... by ghaff on Thursday December 08, 2022 @02:07PM (#33911791)
>Thankfully, that isn’t (yet?) as ubiquitous among writers.

Well, it's less common for fiction but if you're working for a company and writing content you're almost certainly giving up any rights.

If you're ghostwriting without credit, it's not explicitly spelled out but the way it works is they'll slap it on their copyrighted website, possibly under someone else's byline. And they'd reasonably expect you not to publish the same thing verbatim somewhere else.

Though you also have cases where cross-posting is at least tolerated.

Re:I liberate the ending to Minecraft from Microsoft and giv... by jrochkind1 on Thursday December 08, 2022 @04:53PM (#33914113)
I would be shocked if the exact exchange of copyright were not explicitly spelled out when hiring a ghostwriter, unless the hiring party has no idea what they are doing!
Re:I liberate the ending to Minecraft from Microsoft and giv... by baby on Thursday December 08, 2022 @06:43AM (#33906850)
I’m both a dev and a writer and being a writer doesn’t pay compared to being a dev
Re:I liberate the ending to Minecraft from Microsoft and giv... by tremon on Thursday December 08, 2022 @06:41AM (#33906837)
Most freelance developers do? This is a work-for-hire situation, not an employment type situation. Works for hire have a different legal basis than works created as an employee.
Re:I liberate the ending to Minecraft from Microsoft and giv... by jameshart on Thursday December 08, 2022 @07:23AM (#33907107)
Not a lawyer, but… I don’t believe that’s true. As I understand it ‘work for hire’ is the basis by which work done by an employee creates intellectual property belonging to an employer. When you contract a non employee to produce intellectual property for you it is common to write an explicit ‘work for hire’ agreement that ensures that the work you are paying for is handled on the same basis as work by an employee.
Re:I liberate the ending to Minecraft from Microsoft and giv... by zztop44 on Thursday December 08, 2022 @08:32AM (#33907678)
I’m a freelance developer. My clients pay for a perpetual non-exclusive non-transferable license to the software I write for them. I explain this very clearly to every client, and tell them explicitly that I hope and intend to sell the same software (probably with modifications) to another client down the track. I’ve never had a single client push back on this ever. I could definitely imagine for some companies this arrangement might be a dealbreaker for whatever reason, but I don’t think it’s all that unusual.
Re:I liberate the ending to Minecraft from Microsoft and giv... by jameshart on Thursday December 08, 2022 @01:42PM (#33911443)
Right, so that is not a ‘work for hire’ agreement. It is an agreement that explicitly ensures they are aware they are not getting your code on a work for hire basis.
Re:I liberate the ending to Minecraft from Microsoft and giv... by loup-vaillant on Thursday December 08, 2022 @06:01AM (#33906598)
> just skimming the contract, that all seems bog-standard, too.

It is, and that's the problem. From way down the post:

BEGIN QUOTE

Copyright law was originally brought in to help artists make a living. But over the past century, corporations like Disney, Sony, Universal, and Microsoft, have lobbied hard to twist those laws out of shape. Now, the vast power imbalance between rich corporations and poor artists (particularly when negotiating) allows the corporations to stripmine the copyrights from artists, and keep the artists poor. To see how, just look again at the contract I refused to sign. It’s astonishing that such a mafia-shakedown, you-will-never-see-your-kid-again contract is legal; that it is considered a standard way to treat an artist, rather than greeted with gasps of horror, and treated as a crime. This is why none of your favourite comic book writers and artists own any of their creations. This is why Alan Moore, who created Watchmen, cannot use his own characters in his own work. This is why the original blues musicians, whose talent transformed global culture while creating a hugely profitable industry, died broke. This is why, even today, for every $1,000 of sales in the modern music industry, the average individual musician gets $23.40.

END QUOTE

Re:I liberate the ending to Minecraft from Microsoft and giv... by Applejinx on Thursday December 08, 2022 @07:47AM (#33907284)
He's got that wrong: the average musician loses money, gets nothing.

Honestly, that's true at a lot of levels, not just the poverty level. It is said if you want to make a million dollars running a recording studio… spend three million dollars. If you want to be a million dollar rock star… invest (or have your family invest) ten million. It's like that.

It's like, you can wear rags, or you can wear a suit, or you can wear a Superman cape. Would you like to for-real wear that Superman cape, to be the hero? Well, you can, for real. And it will cost you everything, more than you could imagine.

I read this guy's essay in part because he WAS the Minecraft Story Guy, not because I thought he'd have good arguments. That's what he earned, and that's what it cost him (didn't sign up for his mailing list tho :) )

After he dies (assuming I don't go first) I'll remember things about his words. After Markus dies I won't remember a thing about his money (though I'll remember things about the game he made, he's not so different in that respect). I won't remember a thing about the Microsoft lawyers no matter whether they win or lose, whether they enjoin this guy from public-domaining what they see as their employer's property. So in a sense that thing didn't end up being their property and that's the writer's point.

It all gets into philosophic realms, and that's where poets live, not lawyers.

Re:I liberate the ending to Minecraft from Microsoft and giv... by Moru on Thursday December 08, 2022 @03:12AM (#33905553)
Mojang was not a tiny indie company though, it already sold millions of copies before the release. Yes, he should have let his agent negotiate the contract. Do what you are good at and let others do what they are good at.
Re:I liberate the ending to Minecraft from Microsoft and giv... by blackoil on Thursday December 08, 2022 @03:59AM (#33905831)
Size of Mojang is immaterial. If Apple or Microsoft hire a copywriter they'll still pay market rate. Any reason to believe the Author would have received bigger value with help of agent in 2010?
Re:I liberate the ending to Minecraft from Microsoft and giv... by Scarblac on Thursday December 08, 2022 @06:27AM (#33906754)
His agent would have told him to at least deal with the contract before doing the work, I think.
Re:I liberate the ending to Minecraft from Microsoft and giv... by Moru on Thursday December 08, 2022 @05:32AM (#33906406)
He would not have worried about it for so long, so yes I believe he would have help from his agent. I'm not talking about getting more dollars, he is buying peace of mind for his art.
Re:I liberate the ending to Minecraft from Microsoft and giv... by dcow on Thursday December 08, 2022 @03:37AM (#33905715)
One can both be a small indie studio and also have sold multiple millions of copies of their game. Indie simply means you don't have a publisher. And Mojan didn't.
Re:I liberate the ending to Minecraft from Microsoft and giv... by BlueTemplar on Thursday December 08, 2022 @07:17AM (#33907057)
Then Activision-Blizzard is indie.

You have to at least put a floor on that thing or you fall completely afoul of the common meaning.

My rule of thumb would be less than $1 million spent before the first public release ? (Which I assume makes Minecraft indie ?)

Now another question is whether you can even call indie those games being advertised and distributed by Steam (or any other platform) where developers are overwelmingly dependent on that platform for like 95%+ of their sales (including keys from third party websites still for that platform) - because dealing with advertisers and distributors was also an extremely important part of the job when games still came in boxes !

Re:I liberate the ending to Minecraft from Microsoft and giv... by Jensson on Thursday December 08, 2022 @11:37AM (#33909884)
Indie is when the major investors are making the game, at least for me. So if the guys are making their own game without investments they are indie, as in the creators can be free of influences of outside investors.
Re:I liberate the ending to Minecraft from Microsoft and giv... by andrewf on Thursday December 08, 2022 @05:17PM (#33914494)
The Empire Strikes Back was the biggest-budget indie movie ever. Lucas didn't want to be beholden to the studios so he didn't take their money.
Re:I liberate the ending to Minecraft from Microsoft and giv... by ekianjo on Thursday December 08, 2022 @04:49AM (#33906155)
reminds me recently of voice actors who think they are entitled for a bigger piece of the piece just because the game they worked on for a few hours had financial success. Hubris and pretentiousness at its best.
Re:I liberate the ending to Minecraft from Microsoft and giv... by krisoft on Thursday December 08, 2022 @07:21AM (#33907083)
They are free to negotiate as they are pleased. If the producer feels that they can find a cheaper acceptable alternative they will go with that. If they feel what the voice actor is offering is needed they need to pay for it.

> the game they worked on for a few hours

Voice acting is a hard job, and it takes more time than a “few hours” to get good at it. If you think anyone can do it certainly you can just pay an anybody to do it.

Re:I liberate the ending to Minecraft from Microsoft and giv... by pclmulqdq on Thursday December 08, 2022 @07:58AM (#33907388)
It can take a lifetime to get good at something, but a few hours of work after that lifetime generally doesn't cost much. Certainly not more than 5 figures.
Re:I liberate the ending to Minecraft from Microsoft and giv... by trhr on Thursday December 08, 2022 @11:21AM (#33909657)
A man sails his smoking yacht into a repair shop. The head mechanic goes over with a hammer and slams it against the side of the engine. The engine roars back to life, and the smoke subsides.

He submits a bill for $200,000. It is itemized as such:

- $1 - Fifteen seconds of labor; striking with hammer

- $199,999 - Knowing where to strike

Re:I liberate the ending to Minecraft from Microsoft and giv... by squirtlebonflow on Thursday December 08, 2022 @11:48AM (#33910045)
Your hyperbole undermines your point.
Re:I liberate the ending to Minecraft from Microsoft and giv... by trhr on Thursday December 08, 2022 @11:51PM (#33917584)
I'm not sure I had a point. I kind of picked a number I thought Julian would have been happy with, since E$20,000 wasn't it.
Re:I liberate the ending to Minecraft from Microsoft and giv... by zztop44 on Thursday December 08, 2022 @08:35AM (#33907698)
You’re free to negotiate whatever contract you want with the voice actors you hire.
Re:I liberate the ending to Minecraft from Microsoft and giv... by pclmulqdq on Thursday December 08, 2022 @11:25AM (#33909719)
That's what they did in the case of the recent Bayonetta controversy. They actually paid less for the replacement than they were expecting to pay the original actor who wanted more.
Re:I liberate the ending to Minecraft from Microsoft and giv... by ekianjo on Saturday December 10, 2022 @07:15AM (#33931932)
And the game will still sell very well anyway. Problem solved.
Re:I liberate the ending to Minecraft from Microsoft and giv... by ekianjo on Saturday December 10, 2022 @06:29AM (#33931719)
> Voice acting is a hard job, and it takes more time than a “few hours” to get good at it. If you think anyone can do it certainly you can just pay an anybody to do it.

So it takes a long time to learn how to take good pictures, and therefore every picture you take after being good should be worth 5k USD or something? that's not how things work at all.

> Voice acting is a hard job,

So all other jobs are easy? That's again pretentiousness at play.

Re:I liberate the ending to Minecraft from Microsoft and giv... by pbhjpbhj on Thursday December 08, 2022 @08:08AM (#33907468)
The problem with that line of thinking is that Minecraft itself is not worth $2.5 Billion of programmer's time under the same type of analysis.

The ending is like the smile on Mona Lisa in my opinion. You can probably pay someone a few hundred dollars to paint that smile ...