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Re:America’s syringe exchanges kill drug users by ryzvonusef on Saturday December 03, 2022 @12:18PM (#33845129)

    > Decades of research prove that these programmes curtail disease. Junkies are in fact less prone to sharing needles when they get free ones. That sharply decreases rates of blood-borne illnesses. In 2014 an analysis found that every dollar spent on syringe exchanges spares the government around $7 in HIV-related health-care costs. Needle exchanges opened across America and Europe. For years no one detected the feared rise in substance abuse.

    > That was before the opioid crisis plagued America and economists started looking into the trade-offs. A new study by Analisa Packham published in the Journal of Public Economics uncovers an uncomfortable truth: this particular harm-reduction tool does lots of harm. Ms Packham compares how drug users fared in counties that opened syringe exchanges between 2008 and 2016 with those in counties that did not. Before the clinics opened, upticks in HIV diagnoses or overdoses in one set of counties were mirrored in the other. Once a syringe exchange came to town, outcomes diverged. Rates of HIV fell by 15% in counties with the new programme. But deaths soared. On average syringe-exchange programmes led to a 22% spike in opioid-related mortality. 

    > Simply lowering the risks of getting sick—and the costs of paraphernalia, as Flaco from the Bronx articulated—could also incentivise drug use. Distributing PrEP, an HIV-prevention medication, has been shown to make gay men less inclined to use condoms during sex. So too could harm-reduction tools make addicts use drugs more incautiously. In a study published in 2018 Jennifer Doleac and Anita Mukherjee found that when states legalised naloxone, a medication that reverses overdoses, opioid abuse increased. Though lauded by public-health advocates, naloxone did not save lives as intended. In some regions, fewer addicts died; in others, more did.
Re:America’s syringe exchanges kill drug users by ryzvonusef on Saturday December 03, 2022 @12:21PM (#33845161)
seems like people would rather suppress the truth rather than let research be allowed to stand scrutiny on it's own merit

    > These works have been met with anger. Their findings upset harm-reduction defenders who consider their efforts already besieged by critics. The experience was so miserable that Ms Doleac, who studies crime, has decided never to write another health paper.

    > Leo Beletsky, a former drug dealer, now at Northeastern University, deems Ms Packham’s findings “nonsensical” and thinks her paper should not have been published. Don Des Jarlais, at New York University, argues that addicts do not respond to incentives like others do, making the moral-hazard effect inconceivable. Susan Sherman of Johns Hopkins University says she doubts that new evidence that harm reduction does more bad than good would convince her to disregard previous research demonstrating otherwise.

    > A barrage of complaints led the editors of the International Journal of Drug Policy to retract a meta-analysis that found that safe-injection sites, where users do drugs in supervised settings, did not decrease rates of deadly overdose. “Retractions used to be reserved for fraud,” says Keith Humphreys of Stanford University, a former drug-policy adviser for the Obama administration. No longer, it seems.
Re:America’s syringe exchanges kill drug users by slowmovintarget on Saturday December 03, 2022 @12:42PM (#33845370)
> “Retractions used to be reserved for fraud,” says Keith Humphreys of Stanford University...

Science denial has many forms. This appears to be one of the older ones.

Re:America’s syringe exchanges kill drug users by version_five on Saturday December 03, 2022 @12:52PM (#33845511)
People are really bad at accepting information that superficially contradicts something they want, and react by disputing the information instead of taking it into consideration while still pushing for the ends they want to achieve.

In this case, I'd speculate that harm reduction advocates aim is to (tautologically) reduce the (physical/health) harm of drug use so that it's one less problem users face. One aspect of this may be safe consumption, which this article says doesn't work on it's own. Another aspect is overdoses form Fentanyl et al, (which I would argue is largely a byproduct of a drug war that has made heroin too hard to import, and no safe medical supply options for treatment). So the focus could shift to addressing this (which in tandem with safe injection sites could still produce better overall outcomes).

My point is that it's not productive to dispute the studies, better to accept on balance of probabilities and look at how it fits with your overall aim.

(Climate change is very similar. People dispute the studies because they don't like the political rhetoric about how we should react, not because deep down they think all the research is flawed)

Re:America’s syringe exchanges kill drug users by hooverd on Saturday December 03, 2022 @01:05PM (#33845669)
I think some drug warriors become harm advocates. If drug users can't overcome their moral failures, before they suffocate on their vomit than be resuscitated with naloxone.
Re:America’s syringe exchanges kill drug users by the_only_law on Saturday December 03, 2022 @03:09PM (#33846815)
What? This isn’t even a sentence. It’s a collection of sentence fragments and I can’t tell what the hell it’s trying to say.
Re:America’s syringe exchanges kill drug users by hooverd on Saturday December 03, 2022 @03:25PM (#33846948)
It should read "better they" not "before they". Anyways, I was thinking of a specific incident where a fire chief came out and said they would prefer that junkies just die vs adding naxolone to their kit.
Re:America’s syringe exchanges kill drug users by joe5150 on Saturday December 03, 2022 @01:03PM (#33845650)
> The experience was so miserable that Ms Doleac, who studies crime, has decided never to write another health paper.

Good move on Doleac's part; her naloxone paper was atrocious.

Re:America’s syringe exchanges kill drug users by Mistletoe on Saturday December 03, 2022 @01:17PM (#33845818)
What was bad about it?
Re:America’s syringe exchanges kill drug users by cma on Saturday December 03, 2022 @01:22PM (#33845868)
The meta-analysis largely relied on studies that used cities or states as a control on deaths to the small (usually hardest hit) regions where the programs were offered. Like doing an intervention in Skid Row, then using LA as the control for the non-intervention.

Many of the problems are detailed in "Supervised consumption sites: a nuanced assessment of the causal evidence."

It mentions the reason for retraction, something about "pooling diverse outcomes into a composite measure," anyone have a link to the actual details of the retraction other than that it wasn't for fraud?

Re:America’s syringe exchanges kill drug users by sixo on Wednesday December 07, 2022 @01:30AM (#33891311)
Vox discusses it: https://www.vox.com/science-and-health/2018/9/27/17907964/sa...

"Ahmed Bayoumi and Pamela Leece, who wrote one of two critical reviews that led to the meta-analysis’s retraction, noted that the meta-analysis combined outcomes for mortality, drug-related crimes, sharing of drug equipment, and problematic drug use — even though each of these outcomes could be affected differently by a supervised consumption site.

But I can't find the review itself.

In an era of questionable social science, retracting for bad methods seems defensible, but arguably this should just be not cited on account of being inapplicable. The emotionality of the issue makes that hard--if not retracted, it will go on to be bad evidence for things it doesn't say. People seem to have a pretty low bar for what passes as a judgement on supervised consumption sites.

“Accordingly, that estimate of effect has no practical public health or policy implications,” Bayoumi and Leece concluded.

Re:America’s syringe exchanges kill drug users by f38zf5vdt on Saturday December 03, 2022 @12:44PM (#33845394)
In terms of burdening the already dysfunctional healthcare and criminal justice systems of the US, it sounds like it works great. If the junkies no longer exist and less frequently get HIV, their cost to society is less than if they were alive, disease spreading, and committing crime.
Re:America’s syringe exchanges kill drug users by nkrisc on Saturday December 03, 2022 @01:07PM (#33845701)
Why not extend this to everyone? When your projected costs to society exceed your projected benefit to society you get ground into food for the rest?
Re:America’s syringe exchanges kill drug users by f38zf5vdt on Saturday December 03, 2022 @01:18PM (#33845824)
There is a reason economics is called "the dismal science". Most resources on the planet are finite and their consumption is a zero-sum game. If one less drug addict means having the public resources to supply one more diabetic child with life-saving insulin, which would you choose?
Re:America’s syringe exchanges kill drug users by mcguire on Saturday December 03, 2022 @02:31PM (#33846477)
Essentially all choices real people make are not economically optimal.
Re:America’s syringe exchanges kill drug users by moonchrome on Saturday December 03, 2022 @06:05PM (#33848427)
> Most resources on the planet are finite and their consumption is a zero-sum game.

This is such a ridiculous viewpoint on a hacker forum. There are no intrinsic resources - iron ore is just a bunch of rocks, crude oil is a toxic sludge, Uranium is a bunch of radioactive ore.

Economy is not a zero sum game, it's about allocating current resources to expand future ones (AKA growth)

Re:America’s syringe exchanges kill drug users by f38zf5vdt on Saturday December 03, 2022 @09:31PM (#33849958)
There is only one hospitable planet. Observe how we have treated it.
Re:America’s syringe exchanges kill drug users by nkrisc on Saturday December 03, 2022 @08:09PM (#33849423)
That’s a false choice that doesn’t exist and nothing more than a thought experiment.
Re:America’s syringe exchanges kill drug users by the_only_law on Saturday December 03, 2022 @03:05PM (#33846784)
> Why not extend this to everyone?

They already implicitly did. Turns out the dysfunctional criminal justice and medical system the praise affect more than just addicts. Who would have thought.

Re:America’s syringe exchanges kill drug users by giraffe_lady on Saturday December 03, 2022 @12:55PM (#33845549)
This comment is an excellent example of how you can openly call for violence against the vulnerable on HN without censure or consequence as long as you do it in a certain tone.
Re:America’s syringe exchanges kill drug users by throwayyy479087 on Saturday December 03, 2022 @01:01PM (#33845625)
Saying that we shouldn’t enable certain behavior is not violence. Violence is violence, stop messing with the meaning of words.
Re:America’s syringe exchanges kill drug users by giraffe_lady on Saturday December 03, 2022 @01:11PM (#33845752)
What is the meaningful difference between killing someone yourself and letting them die when it's in your power to prevent it?

Saying that a certain population should die because of their criminal nature and high "cost to society" is straight up nazi shit. What's the policy implementation of that opinion just curious? It really doesn't get more clear than this.

Re:America’s syringe exchanges kill drug users by ROTMetro on Saturday December 03, 2022 @02:59PM (#33846714)
I am sure you currently work with or have family members who secretly are addicts. Labeling them as a cost to society, disease spreading, and committing crime and justifying their death instead of talking about them as people in pain is definitely disgusting and not the type of discourse I would have expected from this site. But hey, keep on with your reductionism as justification for complicity in peoples deaths. Also remember, they can't get needles not because they don't want to buy them but because it is illegal to sell them.
Re:America’s syringe exchanges kill drug users by moistly on Sunday December 04, 2022 @01:06AM (#33851095)
Advocating that the system be built such that it solves a problem by having people die certainly sounds an awful lot like advocacy for violence to me.
Re:America’s syringe exchanges kill drug users by aqme28 on Saturday December 03, 2022 @12:47PM (#33845437)
The article is paywalled, but this suggests to me we go further in harm-reduction. The problem is specifically opioid overdoses, so we should have more supervised-injection sites.
Re:America’s syringe exchanges kill drug users by the-printer on Saturday December 03, 2022 @12:49PM (#33845474)
Helping the drug users get off the drugs could reduce plenty of harm, I reckon, but when that fails why is the alternative helping them stay on?
Re:America’s syringe exchanges kill drug users by cwmma on Saturday December 03, 2022 @01:19PM (#33845835)
Easy because if you fail to get them to quit, then the goal is to keep them alive so you can help them quit latter.
Re:America’s syringe exchanges kill drug users by aqme28 on Saturday December 03, 2022 @02:10PM (#33846302)
Why are those mutually exclusive? We should help drug users get off drugs, but we shouldn't make it deadlier for them if we fail.
Re:America’s syringe exchanges kill drug users by the-printer on Saturday December 03, 2022 @03:10PM (#33846830)
Because making it “less deadly” somehow equates to enabling them.

I think that people are more concerned with opioid death statistics than opioid addiction itself. And there is a shattering sense of defeat, which is normal, that is associated with realizing that you cannot help anyone who doesn’t want to help themselves. And if they don’t want to help themselves, then they may go down a collision course that will be their undoing. In this case that often means death.

Re:America’s syringe exchanges kill drug users by aqme28 on Saturday December 03, 2022 @04:32PM (#33847600)
> people are more concerned with opioid death statistics than opioid addiction itself.

I feel strongly this way, or maybe I'm missing your point. Addiction is terrible, but death is clearly worse than addiction. Addiction is survivable.

Re:America’s syringe exchanges kill drug users by the-printer on Saturday December 03, 2022 @05:05PM (#33847907)
Would you choose addiction over death? I’m talking hard drugs. Bottoms out on the same street that you grew up on, or raised your children on, or worked on.

My point is that the “preventive maintenance” approach to opioid addiction is more about death statistics than it is about death itself. It’s a numbers game. A nation’s response to situations such as this will largely be determined by how many people don’t die, because people have a distaste toward death and the general public is subservient to what data suggests irrespective of its practical and tangible representations.

Re:America’s syringe exchanges kill drug users by aqme28 on Sunday December 04, 2022 @09:29AM (#33853979)
Absolutely. Would you not? I know multiple people who have recovered from serious addiction. There are also a lot of addicts who aren't as hard off as you

No offense, but your view here seems insane to me.

I don't follow your point about death statistics vs death itself.

Re:America’s syringe exchanges kill drug users by mcguire on Saturday December 03, 2022 @02:26PM (#33846432)
What alternative do you propose?

"Helping them stay on drugs" is very much the wrong way to look at it. How about "reducing the harm they do to others"?

Re:America’s syringe exchanges kill drug users by the-printer on Saturday December 03, 2022 @02:59PM (#33846715)
Who designed the standard for harm in this instance? How is the self-inflicted harm of addiction that is the actual foundation of the secondary harm caused, for example, by dirty needles and overdose weighed? Is the harm dealt to one’s family considered?

“Helping them stay on drugs” is the practical way of looking at it, because in practice that’s what’s happening. “Reducing harm” in this context sounds like some sort of neo-Hippocratic Orwellian spin on the fact that the alternative is to address the greater issues that lead to and foster drug addiction that are beyond the scope of this tiny box that I’m typing into and do not involve more needles.

Re:America’s syringe exchanges kill drug users by mcguire on Tuesday December 06, 2022 @02:33PM (#33885751)
I notice that you do not propose any actual alternative (I mean, unless you have specific actionable plans for fixing everything.), so I assume your choice would be to allow them and those they infect to die as economically as possible.
Re:America’s syringe exchanges kill drug users by dmix on Saturday December 03, 2022 @12:48PM (#33845457)
Yeah there’s still plenty of solutions here within the current system.
Re:America’s syringe exchanges kill drug users by croes on Saturday December 03, 2022 @12:55PM (#33845548)
And how many are these 15% and 22%?