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Re:Sperm counts worldwide are plummeting faster than we thought by zug_zug on Thursday December 01, 2022 @10:36AM (#33817641)
So this trend has been going on for a while now, I looked a bit into it about 5 years ago here's what I found:

- Tons of popular and legal products/chemicals are "endocrine disruptors"[1]

- The FDA/EPA doesn't deny that, they don't themselves even really test for long-term health effects in humans (too difficult). Instead they give animals a 1000x or more does and look for immediate drastic effects (i.e. dies in a few days).

- The attitude on a lot of chemicals is "Safe until proven guilty," but when some of these chemicals are suspect (e.g. pesticides) instead of a public announcement they are pulled from public use quietly prior to the point of definitive evidence. New/similar ones can be introduced with presumption of safe until proven guilty. (Search PFOAs if you want to get a sense of how ineffective our protection mechanisms are)

I came to the conclusion a radically new model is necessary, the EPA/FDA need to design models to test for fertility effects, perhaps multigenerationally, in their studies (fruit flies?) quickly.

My bet is within 20 years we'll see it as the more immediate problem than global warming.

[1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Endocrine_disruptor

Re:Sperm counts worldwide are plummeting faster than we thought by rootusrootus on Thursday December 01, 2022 @10:57AM (#33817967)
Perhaps we need to invest in more testing, and then work on a whitelist instead of blacklist approach.
Re:Sperm counts worldwide are plummeting faster than we thought by njovin on Thursday December 01, 2022 @11:20AM (#33818365)
I've heard on a few podcasts that this is how European countries do this. We need to stop letting for-profit companies gamble with the health and longevity of the species in the interest of profits.
Re:Sperm counts worldwide are plummeting faster than we thought by Dig1t on Thursday December 01, 2022 @01:01PM (#33819984)
You are right that this is a much better approach. The problem is Europe also has low sperm counts and are also being exposed to endocrine disruptors in the same way as the rest of the world. So whatever whitelist approach they are using does not seem to be saving them from this problem.
Re:Sperm counts worldwide are plummeting faster than we thought by whatshisface on Friday December 02, 2022 @12:27AM (#33827154)
There's not a huge difference between what's legal to sell in Europe and the US.
Re:Sperm counts worldwide are plummeting faster than we thought by hazn on Friday December 02, 2022 @05:06AM (#33828688)
There's however a huge difference in what's being actually prescribed and what's not. Anti-Depressants and strong pain medication isn't as easy to get as in the us as in Germany.
Re:Sperm counts worldwide are plummeting faster than we thought by r00fus on Thursday December 01, 2022 @06:33PM (#33824613)
> We need to stop letting for-profit companies gamble with the health and longevity of the species in the interest of profits.

We might want to prevent them from owning our candidates, legislators and judges first.

Re:Sperm counts worldwide are plummeting faster than we thought by kazinator on Thursday December 01, 2022 @08:40PM (#33825646)
The species that mutilates and heats the planet, and which created those companies?

This may be a long-overdue self-correction.

Global infertility may just be what solves global warming.

Re:Sperm counts worldwide are plummeting faster than we thought by inkblotuniverse on Friday December 02, 2022 @02:13AM (#33827788)
You're welcome to properly end your own fertility at any time. I quite like humans.
Re:Sperm counts worldwide are plummeting faster than we thought by kazinator on Friday December 02, 2022 @01:53PM (#33835009)
I can prove that you don't quite like humans.

How many destitute families are you sheltering in your home?

The world is polluted, and heating up. The most obvious parameter of that is this: the sheer number of people.

You can like people and be on board with the idea that there is such a thing as too many people in one place at one time. The extreme example of that is crowding incidents in which people die, like the one in Seoul this Halloween. No, it's not always "the more, the merrier".

Buildings, vehicles, and various structures and equipment which support or carry people all have maximum occupancies.

Maybe, so do planets?

Re:Sperm counts worldwide are plummeting faster than we thought by newaccount74 on Saturday December 03, 2022 @02:18PM (#33846365)
> How many destitute families are you sheltering in your home?

This is the worst argument ever. I'm not sure what kind of fallacy it is, but it's a really really bad argument.

It's even worse than the "if you really wanted to lose weight you'd find a way, so obviously you just don't care that you are overweight" argument.

Re:Sperm counts worldwide are plummeting faster than we thought by kcartlidge on Friday December 02, 2022 @09:59AM (#33831305)
Not proposing, recommending, or implying a personal view either way, but for interest and in relation to the topic: https://www.vhemt.org/
Re:Sperm counts worldwide are plummeting faster than we thought by theshrike79 on Friday December 02, 2022 @04:57AM (#33828651)
Yep, this is the fundamental difference between EU and US laws for consumables.

In the EU the manufacturer needs to prove the ingredients are safe.

In the US they need to prove they're not harmful. "not harmful" != "safe"

Re:Sperm counts worldwide are plummeting faster than we thought by consumer451 on Thursday December 01, 2022 @11:52AM (#33818953)
Re:Sperm counts worldwide are plummeting faster than we thought by salawat on Thursday December 01, 2022 @12:03PM (#33819113)
>Can we get more QA spending?

You already lost.

Re:Sperm counts worldwide are plummeting faster than we thought by badRNG on Thursday December 01, 2022 @11:08AM (#33818181)
> My bet is within 20 years we'll see it as the more immediate problem than global warming.

I don't want to diminish the importance of a paradigm shift in how regulators treat various chemicals, but I don't think this will be anywhere near as severe and immediate threat as climate change.

Ultimately, if there is a substantial pool of people who's fertility is not adversely impacted by some yet to be identified chemical, then it will be those people who's genes will pass on. Within a generation we as a species will have developed resistance to at least the impact on fertility by some unregulated chemical.

Re:Sperm counts worldwide are plummeting faster than we thought by FeepingCreature on Thursday December 01, 2022 @11:20AM (#33818366)
Ultimately, if there's a substantial pool of people who are not existentially threatened by global warming...
Re:Sperm counts worldwide are plummeting faster than we thought by TeMPOraL on Thursday December 01, 2022 @07:04PM (#33824926)
In both cases, a substantial part of this pool depends on the modern institutions and global supply chains for survival, which are existentially threatened by both climate change and population reduction.
Re:Sperm counts worldwide are plummeting faster than we thought by ipaddr on Thursday December 01, 2022 @05:40PM (#33824003)
Global warming importance as an issue is slowly fading as the world is changing. Make room for new issues.
Re:Sperm counts worldwide are plummeting faster than we thought by jesterson on Friday December 02, 2022 @01:02AM (#33827352)
Spot on. There is substantial amount of companies/people profiteering from climate change fearmongering, so we may expect the trend not to go down very fast
Re:Sperm counts worldwide are plummeting faster than we thought by abenga on Friday December 02, 2022 @05:29AM (#33828799)
Really?

I get the sense we (as in all of us collectively) are not taking it seriously enough. I wonder where this "fearmongering" is happening. A lot of stuff that is happening (the Western US drought that seems to be the worst in a millenium plus the consequent heavy use of groundwater, triple dip la nina, etc.) seem like they should worry us more than they actually are.

Re:Sperm counts worldwide are plummeting faster than we thought by jesterson on Friday December 02, 2022 @11:29AM (#33832668)
What you describing is your personal perception, based (like most of us) on what is circulating in media.

Objectively, “climate change” was happening on this planet allegedly since it was born 4.6 billion years ago. It’s a natural course of things.

To understand the scope of fear mongering you can look what “priests” were saying 10 years ago and how much of their predictions came out as true. It’s quite interesting. They use shortness of human memory.

Re:Sperm counts worldwide are plummeting faster than we thought by the_only_law on Friday December 02, 2022 @11:31AM (#33832700)
> Objectively, “climate change” was happening on this planet allegedly since it was born 4.6 billion years ago. It’s a natural course of thing

By this logic, plenty of species have died out in the 4.6 billion years of earth and so we should do nothing about the demographic crisis in many countries. After all it’s all just life and life will go on.

Re:Sperm counts worldwide are plummeting faster than we thought by jesterson on Saturday December 03, 2022 @10:50AM (#33844342)
And that’s true. What can you do to avoid “demographic crisis”? Thinking you (or we as a society) can change course of things is very flattering, however flowed it is.

You can try to change global things like earth orbit or natural course of time with same result.

To understand how stupid “climate change” ideas are, you can simply look if it’s preachers are doing anything following their preachings. They fly private jets and then tell regular people about “offsetting carbon footprint”.

It’s all about money and power, nothing else. Climate change is of no interest to them.

Re:Sperm counts worldwide are plummeting faster than we thought by virgildotcodes on Saturday December 03, 2022 @02:09PM (#33846286)
Whether or not a person is a hypocrite has nothing to do with the validity of their argument.
Re:Sperm counts worldwide are plummeting faster than we thought by jesterson on Sunday December 04, 2022 @02:01AM (#33851331)
Good point, however if someone doesn't follow their preachings it severely diminishes value of things preached.
Re:Sperm counts worldwide are plummeting faster than we thought by johnfn on Sunday December 04, 2022 @07:21PM (#33859695)
No, it doesn’t.

The truth is the truth - regardless of who tells it to you.

Re:Sperm counts worldwide are plummeting faster than we thought by eternityforest on Thursday December 01, 2022 @11:35PM (#33826830)
Which could be an issue by itself, as whatever mutation confers resistance to it could have side effects, unless it's some enhanced degradation of toxins or something.

But what if it's some other random thing that also gives people heart attacks?

Re:Sperm counts worldwide are plummeting faster than we thought by jamiegreen on Thursday December 01, 2022 @11:55AM (#33818977)
As someone who is too lazy to do their own research on this topic....did you happen to find which products generally contain the most endocrine disruptors?
Re:Sperm counts worldwide are plummeting faster than we thought by horsawlarway on Thursday December 01, 2022 @02:03PM (#33820967)
They'll be in basically all of the plastic around you - since the chemicals do a good job at plasticizing (making plastic less brittle).

If you want a more thorough list, the NIH compiled this

---

What are some common endocrine disruptors?

Bisphenol A (BPA) — used to make polycarbonate plastics and epoxy resins, which are found in many plastic products including food storage containers

Dioxins — produced as a byproduct in herbicide production and paper bleaching, they are also released into the environment during waste burning and wildfires

Perchlorate — a by-product of aerospace, weapon, and pharmaceutical industries found in drinking water and fireworks

Perfluoroalkyl and Polyfluoroalkyl Substances (PFAS) — used widely in industrial applications, such as firefighting foams and non-stick pan, paper, and textile coatings

Phthalates — used to make plastics more flexible, they are also found in some food packaging, cosmetics, children’s toys, and medical devices

Phytoestrogens — naturally occurring substances in plants that have hormone-like activity, such as genistein and daidzein that are in soy products, like tofu or soy milk

Polybrominated diphenyl ethers (PBDE) — used to make flame retardants for household products such as furniture foam and carpets

Polychlorinated biphenyls (PCB) — used to make electrical equipment like transformers, and in hydraulic fluids, heat transfer fluids, lubricants, and plasticizers

Triclosan — may be found in some anti-microbial and personal care products, like liquid body wash

Re:Sperm counts worldwide are plummeting faster than we thought by comte7092 on Thursday December 01, 2022 @05:32PM (#33823915)
One of these is not like the others:

> Phytoestrogens — naturally occurring substances in plants that have hormone-like activity, such as genistein and daidzein that are in soy products, like tofu or soy milk

Your comment doesn’t explicitly say that Phytoestrogens are only present in soy, but it should be clear that such compounds are extremely common, even though people tend to single out soy (largely because soy has been the most studied for potentially positive health reasons.

Phytoestrogens are present in many different grains, legumes, nuts, seeds, vegetables, etc [0]

[0] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Phytoestrogen?wprov=sfti1

Re:Sperm counts worldwide are plummeting faster than we thought by jemmyw on Thursday December 01, 2022 @09:09PM (#33825826)
The problem with going for BPA free products is that they tend to use alternatives that probably have the same issue as BPA they just haven't been tested to the same degree yet.
Re:Sperm counts worldwide are plummeting faster than we thought by adgjlsfhk1 on Friday December 02, 2022 @01:10AM (#33827388)
note that the evidence for phytoestrogens being endocrine disruptors is exceptionally weak. it's essentially 1 study from the 1940s on sheep that has since been contradicted by a number of human studies.
Re:Sperm counts worldwide are plummeting faster than we thought by Dig1t on Thursday December 01, 2022 @04:47PM (#33823334)
My partner and I recently embarked on a journey to replace as many products in our lives that contain endocrine disrupting chemicals (EDC's) as we could. It's _really_ hard.

You have to carefully read product labels, 99.9% of products don't contain any info about EDC's, you have to specially seek out ones that are labeled as phthalate-free, BPA-free, etc.

Biggest offenders are in the kitchen and bathroom. Shampoo, conditioner, deodorant, perfume, are big offenders. There are special versions of these products you can find but they don't usually work as well. Most things that are scented have phthalates. Pretty much any food that comes in a flexible plastic container, most dairy and eggs have it as well (dairy because of the flexible plastic tubing used when pumping milk).

One example of a source for milk: https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/23138015/

Re:Sperm counts worldwide are plummeting faster than we thought by einpoklum on Thursday December 01, 2022 @05:24PM (#33823841)
What does "etc." mean?

Also - products which would not reasonably be produced with, say, "phtalate" - would probably not be labeled phtalate-free anyway. So one first needs to know which "X-free" labels to look for.

Re:Sperm counts worldwide are plummeting faster than we thought by Dig1t on Thursday December 01, 2022 @05:34PM (#33823932)
"etc" in my comment was meant to be other types of chemicals people don't necessarily like. Example: many deodorants that are phthalate-free are also free of aluminum, because people likely to be concerned about phthalates are also likely to be concerned about aluminum, even though aluminum is not an EDC (some people are worried about it being a carcinogen I think). I was just saying here that products with "X-free" are correlated with also being phthalate-free.

But yeah, specifically the thing to look for is "phthalate-free".

Re:Sperm counts worldwide are plummeting faster than we thought by nanomonkey on Thursday December 01, 2022 @06:03PM (#33824263)
Even some papers are lined with BPA, or similar products. The reactant acid in thermal paper is often bisphenol A (BPA). A good reason to go without getting a receipt.
Re:Sperm counts worldwide are plummeting faster than we thought by Vrondi on Thursday December 01, 2022 @09:14PM (#33825867)
Good grief, just trying to find products that are unscented is a nightmare. So many say "unscented" on the front, then have "parfum" or something in the ingredients.
Re:Sperm counts worldwide are plummeting faster than we thought by actually_a_dog on Friday December 02, 2022 @01:22AM (#33827465)
"Unscented" is basically a lie. Most things that are "unscented" actually have masking agents to cover the scent of the product. You want to look for things that have "no added scent" on the label.
Re:Sperm counts worldwide are plummeting faster than we thought by itomato on Friday December 02, 2022 @06:47AM (#33829286)
Yes. After much exploration, my family switched shampoo and soap to this alone: https://www.aleavia.com/products/enzymatic-body-cleanse
Re:Sperm counts worldwide are plummeting faster than we thought by daydream on Friday December 02, 2022 @09:46AM (#33831079)
It looks like that still comes in a plastic bottle though?
Re:Sperm counts worldwide are plummeting faster than we thought by lonelyasacloud on Friday December 02, 2022 @01:00AM (#33827347)
Unfortunately it’s impossible to avoid exposure because of ubiquitous micro plastic pollution in our food, water and air.
Re:Sperm counts worldwide are plummeting faster than we thought by pyuser583 on Friday December 02, 2022 @03:16AM (#33828092)
I’m horribly allergic to most perfumes. Nothing scented: no soap, shampoo, nothing.

So do I get super sperm or something?

Re:Sperm counts worldwide are plummeting faster than we thought by ropable on Thursday December 01, 2022 @08:02PM (#33825403)
If I recall correctly, the best way to avoid immediate exposure to this class of chemical was to avoid heat your food inside plastic containers (typically in a microwave) as this can mobilise some of the more volatile endocrine-disrupting compounds into your meal.
Re:Sperm counts worldwide are plummeting faster than we thought by moonchrome on Thursday December 01, 2022 @12:30PM (#33819495)
This appears to be a global trend.
Re:Sperm counts worldwide are plummeting faster than we thought by tjpnz on Thursday December 01, 2022 @10:39PM (#33826463)
How can this be fixed given the vested interests involved?
Re:Sperm counts worldwide are plummeting faster than we thought by janalsncm on Thursday December 01, 2022 @11:34PM (#33826829)
Maybe it can be balanced by the vested interests of the rest of us in not being poisoned.
Re:Sperm counts worldwide are plummeting faster than we thought by isthisthingon99 on Friday December 02, 2022 @06:21AM (#33829099)
Through history, only a mass of people have forced a change. That's not possible until you start changing first. And when people around you notice, educate them. It will take time, eventually it will happen.
Re:Sperm counts worldwide are plummeting faster than we thought by pyinstallwoes on Friday December 02, 2022 @02:06AM (#33827743)
Did you make any lifestyle changes after your research?
Re:Sperm counts worldwide are plummeting faster than we thought by etrautmann on Friday December 02, 2022 @07:53AM (#33829841)
comparing this to climate change is a false dilemma. We can and should address both, and framing it this way is unhelpful to both issues.
Re:Sperm counts worldwide are plummeting faster than we thought by hollosi on Friday December 02, 2022 @11:05AM (#33832328)
Plummeting sperm counts is a worldwide trend.

On the other hand, people in more industrial countries are exposed to different chemicals (BPA, FPOAs, flame retardants, food additives, etc.), than people in more agrarian countries (field chemicals, like fertilizers and pesticides). These chemicals are all harmful, but it's hard to blame a single class of them for a global problem.

If I had to pick a truly universal issue, I would say childhood and young adult obesity. Surprisingly, obesity is growing rapidly even in countries where hunger is also a problem.