That's a minor inconvenience compared to not being able to communicate with most people who use these mainstream networks.

I'm more worried about the lack of encryption and trustworthiness aspect of them than giving away a phone number.

I had understood that the majority of countries now required SIM card registration. Plenty of EU member states do, so it's not just the usual suspects(!)

https://www.phonetravelwiz.com/phone-travel-options/sim-card...

> Of the 245 countries/territories with territory-bound mobile operators, 185 countries have SIM card registration laws. 13 will collect biometrics (fingerprints, but some will take a face scan too). 51 countries have no registration requirements.

Which by itself is questionable.

People have to understand that meta-data about you is almost as important as data.

For example just the fact that your phone has signal or telegram installed is meta-data that helps to identify you. They do not need to know your name.

And for bonus:

https://www.justsecurity.org/10311/michael-hayden-kill-peopl...

you can use your own encryption on top of a cleartext model if that is a problem

Telecom companies have full records of who had what IP, for what duration and when as does your ISP. If a phone number will get you pinched (based on no decryptable data) then so will anything else.

Signal is partly an attempt to normalise a service with strong encryption to provide a crowd it's easier to hide in.

i am saying remove the mobile requirement and signal is perfect. not until then.

signal to noise ratio of people using VPNs removes the linking user device to an account to a good extent.

now, in the existing model, whatever method you use, your number is STILL a PII, in whatsapp or signal or whatever.

>then so will anything else.

100% agree but you whatever counter measures you take, your number is still available in whatsapp/signal so there is NO way to prevent that. IF these two did not have the number, then that would indeed be better but not until then

That a government will scan all domestic phone numbers against a Signal API to identify a list of users who, at one time, installed Signal and use that list to target you? They can do the same with IP addresses of people using VPNs as well. Something is tied to you regardless.

You’re right that the Signal would allow this by phone number or IP, so it’s an additional angle at the same threat.

Americans and Europeans have the desire to learn this lesson the hard way. They lack the wisdom to learn from others and instead believe their governments are the noble governments that would never violate their rights for power.

Only China does it better ... the oppression, of speech, that is, as evidence by a video of CCP police roaming subway trains, reading every subway commuters' cellphone for social media content. As if CPP's ability to monitor centralized servers isn't cutting it anymore.

https://mobile.twitter.com/caro4ontario/status/1597588741371...

Traditional Americans are few and far between these days. Decades of "liberal" education pushing a rose colored view of strong central governments have changed the American Culture this is why you see younger voters increasingly looking to government not community to solve their problems.

In your example where Democrats support the 4th amendment, what except if a random person says you are armed then the 4th goes out the window, except if you are deemed to be rich then the 4th goes out the window, except if you have the "Wrong" opinions then the 4th goes out the windows

Democrats like Republicans only support the 4th, and every other amendment to the point where it supports their narrative and desire for power, the second the constitution is deemed to stand in the way of their power well it is document that should be ignored "for the greater good"

One of the reasons why Democrats want 16-year-olds to vote, because only people with limited brain development would support most of their policies ;)

I don't get your threat model.

exact same thing. you register your whatsapp group meaning you either get a mole as a member to keep track of the activities or you are made to (unverified) install pegasus style malware on your phone so that the admins can be tracked.

this is exactly https://kashmirlife.net/sleuths-silently-listen-to-clubhouse...

so its not like i am just making this shit up.

remember, clubhouse makes you sign up using the phone so there you go. Now, if the numbers werent there, it would still be possible but not as low effort

Whose number? How are the government going to "ask for your number" ? Signal doesn't hold any data that would let them answer that query if they wanted to.

does signal keep your mobile number? just that? not asking about metadata or actual message data, just number associated to an account?

Or, instead of spending $$$ on lawyers to make Signal tell you the answer to obvious questions, which US government agencies have done several times - I reckon I'd do it for $10 per time, minimum order 1000 stupid questions.

I can do other stupid questions, wondering which Telegram user is "@foobar" ? I can tell you it's "@foobar" and for just $10. Now, Telegram can tell you a lot more about this user of theirs, so you might want to get the court to make them do that, but Signal don't know anything about their users so maybe my $10 service is more "useful" for Signal? I guess it really depends what you think the word "useful" means.

what are you on about. how could a company compel a government to "pay" them when they can just force them to have a mole on payroll?

And that from the SIM, you get IMEI, which can be cross ref'd with telecom logs to get geolocation?

Phone numbers are basically a glorified UUID. Also, in most jurisdictions it is required by law that telcos have tight integration with Law Enforcement, and even with the U.S., any type of investigation will start with a pull for the individual's phone number from whereever, cross ref that with SIM financial payment info, cross ref'd with bank accounts/credit card activity for purchase activity. Then cross-ref with Driver's license/civic/court records?

By DEFAULT. Third party doctrine. It ain't protected by the Fourth Amendment. In less zealous states, forget about principled restraint. The phone number is effectively your citizen Id.

When people like me start raising hell about the dangers of UUID primitives, this is what we're trying to protect you from.

No one can be trusted with the view created by the aggregation and cross-reference of this type of info. Every government/legislature/population will eventually "think of the children/criminals" their way to it anyway though, while law enforcement jumps up and down with glee at how complete a picture they can get through their fusion centers. Then it's just a matter of how long it takes for an autocrat to insert themselves into a place of power until the technological marvel that empowers law enforcement to "ensnare the bad guys", has "bad guys" surreptitiously crossed out and replaced with some signifier for a set of people that contains you.

If you don't think that happens, you ain't been paying enough attention. If you wonder why that hasn't been an issue before, it was because part of what puts a check on LE was the burden of physically referencing and cross-ref'ing data, which would put a fundamental cap on the ability for any abuse of power to materialize.

We're losing that check. Quickly.

Sure. But which phone number?

Only Signal leaves your message on their servers totally encrypted at-rest whose keys stays at your phone. No court order can ever hope to compel Signal what was said. The court will instead need one of the parties' phone for that, if it hasn't expire-deleted yet and doesn't have 9-alphanumeric characters or longer password length.

That cannot be said true of Telegram, WhatsApp, WeChat (that I've reversed engineered).

They can still beat you with a wrench to divulge your information even if it’s on Matrix or even pen and paper.

this does not scale as easily. sure if you are an actual target, your goose is probably cooked anyway but what about the masses? i am just saying, what we call "mass surveilance" and wrench beating dont go hand in hand. mobile number helps them in mass surveilance which can give them more leads.

if that limb is removed, they can still do it but it is a bit harder so the hope is they will focus their time on only serious cases as opposed to everyone willy nilly because it is just so easy