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Re:It’s Time to Reaffirm Our First Amendment Right to Boycott by connicpu on Saturday November 26, 2022 @05:42PM (#33757604)
I still cannot wrap my head around the idea of making a boycott illegal. If it's not accompanied by speech, what is the difference between someone who actively avoids a product or one who simply would not have purchased it in the first place? How can that possibly be enforced? If I sign that form and then happen to not buy any of the products I'm not supposed to boycott, have I violated the contract?
Re:It’s Time to Reaffirm Our First Amendment Right to Boycott by jawns on Saturday November 26, 2022 @06:41PM (#33758196)
Here is the way it works, in practice.

Legislators who propose and pass this legislation use it to demonstrate their support for Israel, or coal mining, or gun rights, or whatever anti-boycotting cause they're advancing.

Entities who are forced to sign these pledges generally put as much thought into it as you or I put into agreeing to a TOS with a binding arbitration agreement. In other words, not very much thought at all.

Because ... As you've pointed out, the government cannot, in practice, prove that those entities are actually boycotting unless the entities come right out and say it. So if the entities actually want to boycott Israel, they can continue to do so without announcing it. The law doesn't actually stop anyone from boycotting Israel; at best, it merely stops them from publicizing what they're doing.

Re:It’s Time to Reaffirm Our First Amendment Right to Boycott by feet on Saturday November 26, 2022 @06:58PM (#33758362)
So it's only illegal if accompanied by speech, thereby making a specific speech illegal. Isn't that a first amendment violation?
Re:It’s Time to Reaffirm Our First Amendment Right to Boycott by luckylion on Saturday November 26, 2022 @07:34PM (#33758683)
It's not illegal, you just wouldn't get government contracts, or be accepted as a government employee. Essentially, you can't say "don't buy from Jews" and be a teacher or sponsor KKK-marches and do landscaping for the local government.

You can do both without doing business with the government though, so legality is not questioned.

Re:It’s Time to Reaffirm Our First Amendment Right to Boycott by hn_throwaway_99 on Saturday November 26, 2022 @07:51PM (#33758795)
That's not how the first amendment works, as it does put limitations on the kinds of speech that governments are allowed to favor (or disfavor). Just saying it only affects employment or contracts does not act like a "get out of jail free" card for governments.

Of course, there is a ton of gray area here that the courts will have to rule on, but the whole point the ACLU is making is that they believe these anti-boycott laws are in violation of the first amendment.

Re:It’s Time to Reaffirm Our First Amendment Right to Boycott by tb_technical on Saturday November 26, 2022 @09:12PM (#33759384)
You're right, it's not how the first amendment is supposed to work. But it's definitely how it currently works.
Re:It’s Time to Reaffirm Our First Amendment Right to Boycott by hyp0cr1tzz on Saturday November 26, 2022 @10:56PM (#33760167)
"Free speech is just about government, private companies like Twitter can censor you"

"Actually free speech means you can lose government contracts or you job as a government employee too"

You know, at least I think China is a bit more honest about how they approach this question.

Re:It’s Time to Reaffirm Our First Amendment Right to Boycott by luckylion on Sunday November 27, 2022 @05:48AM (#33762006)
I'm not a fan of private companies or governments limiting speech, but there's a difference between the government saying "you're not allowed to say that" and the government saying "you're not allowed to say that if you want to be associated with the government".

It could totally be a slippery slope towards the government amassing more power and then granting contracts only to those who parrot the party line, but I believe the solution to that is to reduce government size and power.

And also, I don't find your position so controversial that you'd need a throwaway account.

Re:It’s Time to Reaffirm Our First Amendment Right to Boycott by Stupulous on Sunday November 27, 2022 @01:15AM (#33760838)
It's only enforceable if accompanied by speech. If I commit a crime with no evidence, my confession is the only thing that can convict me. I don't think it would be fair to say I'd be forbidden from confessing.

I think there's a stronger case that your purchase choice is covered as free expression or that the government can't compel you to do business with a private entity.

Re:It’s Time to Reaffirm Our First Amendment Right to Boycott by hn_throwaway_99 on Saturday November 26, 2022 @07:02PM (#33758400)
> So if the entities actually want to boycott Israel, they can continue to do so without announcing it. The law doesn't actually stop anyone from boycotting Israel; at best, it merely stops them from publicizing what they're doing.

But that is exactly what boycotts are all about. An effective boycott isn't just you deciding to stop buying something, but it's about convincing lots of other people and organizations to also stop buying something.

And, perhaps most importantly, in any organization there is guaranteed to be a paper trail for any prohibitions against, say, purchasing from any companies in Israel. This kind of legislation absolutely would have a chilling effect on organizational purchases, which is where the vast amount of money sent to places likely to be boycotted comes from.

Re:It’s Time to Reaffirm Our First Amendment Right to Boycott by bb88 on Saturday November 26, 2022 @05:58PM (#33757780)
The original American colonists boycotted the tea from England. Under the appeals court ruling, things like boycotting twitter could be made illegal.
Re:It’s Time to Reaffirm Our First Amendment Right to Boycott by Waterluvian on Saturday November 26, 2022 @06:35PM (#33758132)
Admittedly I don’t know American history well.

Are you referring to the Boston tea party or was there a much longer running boycott? I ask because my weak understanding is that colonists waylaid ships in port and actively destroyed the cargo. That’s more than a boycott, I think?

Re:It’s Time to Reaffirm Our First Amendment Right to Boycott by char_star_star on Saturday November 26, 2022 @06:52PM (#33758300)
Non-consumption and non-importation movements in response to taxes levied on various goods imported from England. Precursors to the future direct action taken at the Boston Tea Party.

https://www.masshist.org/revolution/non_importation.php

Re:It’s Time to Reaffirm Our First Amendment Right to Boycott by Waterluvian on Saturday November 26, 2022 @07:05PM (#33758426)
Thanks for the link and lesson!

And I’m guessing that when the ACLU mentions the Boston Tea Party at the beginning of the article, they mean the bigger series of events and not as much the destruction of property in the harbour. I imagine they’re not advocating for the constitutional right to illegally destroy property as a form of boycott.

(Fully appreciating that context was very different in 1773, I’m not suggesting the Boston Tea Party was “wrong”.)

Re:It’s Time to Reaffirm Our First Amendment Right to Boycott by hedora on Saturday November 26, 2022 @08:20PM (#33759016)
It was less about the taxes, and more about the fact that Britain banned the import of tea by any other country.

These days, we have plenty of monopolies that probably deserve similar treatment (or anti trust actions), so the schools don't teach that part of the story.

Re:It’s Time to Reaffirm Our First Amendment Right to Boycott by yamtaddle on Tuesday November 29, 2022 @11:54AM (#33790005)
There was a stronger anti-tax argument for other things (stamp act, especially) but the tea issue was mostly a bunch of smugglers and smuggler-connected folks who were pissed off that the British had not just made any gray-area work they were doing explicitly illegal, but were also undercutting them such that they couldn't compete on price, even by breaking the law.

For ordinary tea drinkers the whole tea thing actually made tea cheaper. It's one of the weirder things to get attention as a reason-for-revolt, really. I suppose the "tea party" protest is just odd and interesting enough that we can't resist lumping that in with far more legitimate grievances.

Re:It’s Time to Reaffirm Our First Amendment Right to Boycott by rayiner on Saturday November 26, 2022 @07:39PM (#33758718)
The American colonists weren’t trying to boycott English tea while still trying to get government contracts from England. The question is not whether the government can ban a boycott (obviously not) but whether it can use its position as a major buyer to influence such boycotts.
Re:It’s Time to Reaffirm Our First Amendment Right to Boycott by hn_throwaway_99 on Saturday November 26, 2022 @07:58PM (#33758838)
People boycotting Israel aren't trying to get government contracts with Israel either.

There is obviously gray area here, but I think it's extremely unlikely the courts will rule that these anti-boycott laws are OK because it only affects employment or contracts. More than likely, courts will see it as a free speech restriction, but will apply the strict scrutiny test to determine if these are an allowed compelling government interest.

1. https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Strict_scrutiny

2. https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Government_interest

Re:It’s Time to Reaffirm Our First Amendment Right to Boycott by bb88 on Saturday November 26, 2022 @08:20PM (#33759012)
So? Those US companies aren't getting government contracts from Israel.
Re:It’s Time to Reaffirm Our First Amendment Right to Boycott by luckylion on Saturday November 26, 2022 @05:51PM (#33757704)
If it's not announced, if your intentions are not known, is it a boycott? I'd say no, because you're not boycotting Store A if you're shopping at Store B for some reason other than your hate of Store A for store-unrelated reasons (e.g. the political stance of the store owner, or the color of their skin).
Re:It’s Time to Reaffirm Our First Amendment Right to Boycott by bb88 on Saturday November 26, 2022 @06:03PM (#33757831)
Even simpler, making your intentions known should fall under "political speech" -- which currently enjoy the widest protections under the courts.
Re:It’s Time to Reaffirm Our First Amendment Right to Boycott by Animatronio on Saturday November 26, 2022 @06:16PM (#33757975)
This is precisely how one would create a silent majority - muzzling any dissenting speech or attitude.
Re:It’s Time to Reaffirm Our First Amendment Right to Boycott by nerdponx on Saturday November 26, 2022 @05:51PM (#33757703)
It's not illegal, but it does disqualify you from getting a federal government business contract. I think this is more of a gray area than advocates would like to make you believe.

Whatever you might feel about Israel, you can't deny the fact that they are a strategically valuable geopolitical ally, and it's not unreasonable for the federal government to avoid doing businesses with companies that are actively and publicly boycotting a strategic ally. What if it was Taiwan instead?

Re:It’s Time to Reaffirm Our First Amendment Right to Boycott by faxywaxy on Saturday November 26, 2022 @06:38PM (#33758167)
You actually can deny that Israel is a strategically valuable geopolitical ally. Osama bin Laden literally cited the Israeli bombing of Lebanon as his reason for the 9/11 attacks: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Osama_bin_Laden#September_11_a...

Not only is Israel an immoral apartheid state, it's a liability to US citizens. There are many reasons to support BDS (Israel boycott, divest, sanction) and that Israel has successfully lobbied for this unconstitutional violation of the first amendment deserves more awareness and pushback.

Re:It’s Time to Reaffirm Our First Amendment Right to Boycott by brigandish on Saturday November 26, 2022 @08:15PM (#33758972)
> Osama bin Laden literally cited the Israeli bombing of Lebanon as his reason for the 9/11 attacks

Bin Laden cited that as one of the reasons, there was a long list[1] that also included Western forces preventing genocide in East Timor (by the way, Christopher Hitchens gave an excoriating answer on this to some supine fool[2]), the partition of India/Pakistan, stoping "hope" in Somalia, the Russian "crusade" in Chechnya, another crusade in Bosnia (there's a lot of crusading going on), things in the Philippines, Sudan and Bangladesh, the UN for lots of things… there wasn't a cat fight in a Muslim's back garden that he couldn't turn into a reason to kill innocent people, but he also didn't hold back on his hatred for Israel and Jews, that is true.

I may have missed something as there are a lot of grievances about "Muslim lands" in his speech but to portray it as being about one attack or one place would be to misrepresent his views.

[1] http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/world/monitoring/media_reports/16...

[2] https://youtube.com/watch?v=axHR8AOxxkc

Re:It’s Time to Reaffirm Our First Amendment Right to Boycott by faxywaxy on Saturday November 26, 2022 @10:40PM (#33760052)
The link points to a direct quote from Osama bin Laden. That's not "misrepresenting his views":

"God knows it did not cross our minds to attack the Towers, but after the situation became unbearable—and we witnessed the injustice and tyranny of the American-Israeli alliance against our people in Palestine and Lebanon—I thought about it. And the events that affected me directly were that of 1982 and the events that followed—when America allowed the Israelis to invade Lebanon, helped by the US Sixth Fleet. As I watched the destroyed towers in Lebanon, it occurred to me punish the unjust the same way: to destroy towers in America so it could taste some of what we are tasting and to stop killing our children and women."

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Osama_bin_Laden#September_11_a...

Re:It’s Time to Reaffirm Our First Amendment Right to Boycott by brigandish on Sunday November 27, 2022 @03:13AM (#33761335)
So we have two quotes from the same person. The one I supplied points out that Israel’s behaviour is not the only justification Bin Laden gave, and the one you’ve given does not negate the first quote. Hence, to pretend it’s the only reason is to misrepresent his views. The first time may have been ignorance or a mistake but to continue to argue it after being shown the evidence to the contrary implies intention, or perhaps cognitive dissonance of some sort but it doesn’t correct the record in any way, shape, or form.
Re:It’s Time to Reaffirm Our First Amendment Right to Boycott by faxywaxy on Sunday November 27, 2022 @12:16PM (#33764589)
He clearly states in both the quote and the BBC article you posted that Israel's actions are motivation. You're arguing semantics when the point is that Israel is a liability to US citizens and nothing you posted contradicts that. The parent that I was responding to said that it's not debatable that Israel is of strategic value to US citizens and both of our posts show that it definitely is debatable.
Re:It’s Time to Reaffirm Our First Amendment Right to Boycott by brigandish on Sunday November 27, 2022 @08:10PM (#33768721)
Yes, the semantics between only and many. Somehow you wish to gloss over any difference and focus on Israel alone.
Re:It’s Time to Reaffirm Our First Amendment Right to Boycott by bb88 on Saturday November 26, 2022 @06:20PM (#33758002)
> you can't deny the fact that they are a strategically valuable geopolitical ally.

So ergo, we must destroy the first amendment to shield other countries from valid criticisms? I'd think we'd want our allies to respect our right to free speech above all else.

Edited to add: I even think we would want to respect our right to free speech over the beliefs of our allies.

Re:It’s Time to Reaffirm Our First Amendment Right to Boycott by Manuel_D on Saturday November 26, 2022 @07:16PM (#33758512)
What first amendment right is being destroyed? You have the right to boycott. The federal government also has the right to boycott you for choosing particular targets of your boycott.
Re:It’s Time to Reaffirm Our First Amendment Right to Boycott by bb88 on Saturday November 26, 2022 @07:52PM (#33758801)
The principle in question is favoritism based upon political speech.

If, say, you boycott the democratic party (e.g.), then the Biden government would have every right to cancel any contracts because of your political speech. The only way to prove that you're not actually boycotting would be to donate to the democratic party.

Re:It’s Time to Reaffirm Our First Amendment Right to Boycott by hedora on Saturday November 26, 2022 @08:35PM (#33759129)
Similarly, by the logic of the current anti-boycott laws, they could make you promise not to support those anti-Democrat nutjobs in the GOP.
Re:It’s Time to Reaffirm Our First Amendment Right to Boycott by crazygringo on Saturday November 26, 2022 @08:28PM (#33759082)
No. The federal government does not have that right, that's the entire point of this lawsuit. And the entire point of the first amendment.

In a democracy, a government does not have the right to selectively boycott its citizens for their political views. Otherwise, what's next -- the party in power refusing to award contracts to businesses that support the opposition party? You can see how democracy would collapse pretty quickly.

Re:It’s Time to Reaffirm Our First Amendment Right to Boycott by connicpu on Saturday November 26, 2022 @09:53PM (#33759704)
Actually the government very specifically does not have the right to retaliate against you based upon protected speech you make, the entire point of the first amendment.
Re:It’s Time to Reaffirm Our First Amendment Right to Boycott by Manuel_D on Saturday November 26, 2022 @11:02PM (#33760193)
Is it speech or is it inefficient sourcing practices? The fed doesn't want to buy from a company engaging in boycotts because it's paying a premium to exclude a certain segment of the market. If the cheapest manufacturer of a part is a boycotted country then a more expensive one must be sourced.

If a country really should be excluded from trade pass a sanction.

Re:It’s Time to Reaffirm Our First Amendment Right to Boycott by connicpu on Sunday November 27, 2022 @02:53AM (#33761261)
That's the point of the bidding process for government contracts. If your boycott makes your services more expensive, then you're less likely to receive the contract, but it would still be your choice.

And it doesn't apply at all to e.g. Teachers who are being forced to sign waivers like this

Re:It’s Time to Reaffirm Our First Amendment Right to Boycott by Manuel_D on Tuesday November 29, 2022 @02:00PM (#33791653)
> If your boycott makes your services more expensive, then you're less likely to receive the contract, but it would still be your choice.

The cheapest bid might be even cheaper absent the boycott. I, and plenty of other people, don't want to pay this premium because of a company's political agenda. Fulfill the contract with the most efficient supplies on the market, or don't both bidding at all.

Re:It’s Time to Reaffirm Our First Amendment Right to Boycott by rnk on Saturday November 26, 2022 @07:29PM (#33758637)
Of course protecting our ally Israel in special ways is exactly what these laws are intended to do. People get all bent out of shape when someone criticizes the US, and the same happens with regards to Israel. Countries make mistakes, it's a good idea to have open discussion of those problems. Saying your can't criticize the us because it's unamerican or helps our enemies or some such is just nonsense, and it also applies to other countries in the world.
Re:It’s Time to Reaffirm Our First Amendment Right to Boycott by bb88 on Saturday November 26, 2022 @08:11PM (#33758941)
This was one of the problems of the George W. Bush on the run up to the Iraq war. If you criticized the president, you were accused of giving "aid and comfort" to the enemy --- which of course was nonsense.
Re:It’s Time to Reaffirm Our First Amendment Right to Boycott by tptacek on Saturday November 26, 2022 @06:25PM (#33758054)
I don't think this is a gray area. There's a bunch of Supreme Court decisions striking down the state's ability to use business contracts to compel speech --- compelled speech was a big problem in the middle of the last century, as it was used to prop up local political machines.
Re:It’s Time to Reaffirm Our First Amendment Right to Boycott by nerdponx on Saturday November 26, 2022 @08:12PM (#33758960)
That's interesting, what cases should I read about to get the background on this?
Re:It’s Time to Reaffirm Our First Amendment Right to Boycott by Animatronio on Saturday November 26, 2022 @06:11PM (#33757911)
What if it was Qatar instead, or Saudi Arabia? Are they not allies? Are ppl allowed to express dissatisfaction with their behaviour?
Re:It’s Time to Reaffirm Our First Amendment Right to Boycott by nerdponx on Saturday November 26, 2022 @06:20PM (#33758004)
Of course, but the government is also allowed to decide not to do business with those people.

This case is more analogous to the case of the cake shop who wouldn't make a wedding cake for a gay couple. It's less about free speech in general and more about discrimination in doing business.

Re:It’s Time to Reaffirm Our First Amendment Right to Boycott by Animatronio on Saturday November 26, 2022 @06:38PM (#33758163)
Re:It’s Time to Reaffirm Our First Amendment Right to Boycott by faxywaxy on Saturday November 26, 2022 @06:45PM (#33758244)
The US and state governments are not private institutions. The money used to pay the contracts in question is collected from citizens who have to pay it. The government can't then turn around and gate that public money behind 1st amendment violating policy.
Re:It’s Time to Reaffirm Our First Amendment Right to Boycott by Manuel_D on Saturday November 26, 2022 @07:18PM (#33758534)
Right: and the voters have decided that they don't want their tax dollars to be squandered paying a premium because contractors have decided to boycott. If someone wants to boycott Taiwan and avoid any semiconductors from TSMC, then they're engaging in significant self-sabotage and it's wise for the government to avoid people engaging in this behavior.
Re:It’s Time to Reaffirm Our First Amendment Right to Boycott by faxywaxy on Saturday November 26, 2022 @07:24PM (#33758594)
There is no premium to be paid for boycotting Israel and that fabricated scenario has nothing to do with pro-Israel lobbyist driven first amendment violations.
Re:It’s Time to Reaffirm Our First Amendment Right to Boycott by Manuel_D on Saturday November 26, 2022 @07:33PM (#33758666)
Any time you reject a segment of the market, you're limiting the pool of available vendors. This obviously applies more to markets with significant presence in the boycotted country. Semiconductors for Taiwant, Israel makes plenty of sensor and software products.
Re:It’s Time to Reaffirm Our First Amendment Right to Boycott by faxywaxy on Saturday November 26, 2022 @07:37PM (#33758697)
The only thing segmenting the market are the anti-BDS laws. You can boycott Israel and still bid on a government contract and let market forces do the work.

This isn't an issue of market efficiency though, it's an issue of violating the first amendment.

Re:It’s Time to Reaffirm Our First Amendment Right to Boycott by Manuel_D on Saturday November 26, 2022 @11:19PM (#33760299)
Right except a specific country is excluded from that market. A company engaging in a boycott is saying "if the cheapest component comes from an Israeli firm, we're going to pay a prenup to source it somewhere from else." As a taxpayer, I don't want to be paying that premium.
Re:It’s Time to Reaffirm Our First Amendment Right to Boycott by faxywaxy on Sunday November 27, 2022 @12:09PM (#33764517)
As a tax payer you wouldn't overpay for anything since this has nothing to do with the bidding process.
Re:It’s Time to Reaffirm Our First Amendment Right to Boycott by Manuel_D on Sunday November 27, 2022 @08:08PM (#33768708)
A boycott is literally saying "we won't bid on x country's products". It means if the cheapest is from a boycotted country then a more expensive product will be bought instead. I'm baffled at the mental gymnastics one has to do to convince oneself thata boycott has no impact.
Re:It’s Time to Reaffirm Our First Amendment Right to Boycott by faxywaxy on Monday November 28, 2022 @05:37PM (#33780886)
And again, that has absolutely nothing to do with the bidding process.
Re:It’s Time to Reaffirm Our First Amendment Right to Boycott by Manuel_D on Monday November 28, 2022 @09:45PM (#33783063)
Let's say, absent a boycott companies A B and C place bids of $1000, $1500, and $2000. Then they all decide to boycott a part from a country and the buy a replacement that's $100 more expensive. Then the buds become $1100 $1600 and $2100. Even though the cheapest bid still wins it could have been even cheaper absent the boycott.

I, and apparently most voters, don't want to pay that extra money.

Re:It’s Time to Reaffirm Our First Amendment Right to Boycott by faxywaxy on Tuesday November 29, 2022 @10:13AM (#33788519)
First of all, voters had absolutely nothing to do with this decision, it was Israel lobbyists. You do realize that Israel is receiving billions of dollars of taxpayer money right? If you were actually concerned about wasted tax dollars, you'd be advocating to cut off their funding.

Second, there is zero proof that Israel provides goods at a discount, show your work.

Third, in your fabricated scenario, a fourth company would just come in and buy the (fictitious) discounted parts and win the bid. That's how the free market works.

You're clearly not arguing in good faith, so this is the end of the conversation for me.

Re:It’s Time to Reaffirm Our First Amendment Right to Boycott by Manuel_D on Tuesday November 29, 2022 @01:58PM (#33791619)
> Third, in your fabricated scenario, a fourth company would just come in and buy the (fictitious) discounted parts and win the bid. That's how the free market works.

So if there isn't a fourth company, yes there will be a premium paid due to the boycott. Your claim is essentially that if the winning bidders don't engage in the boycott then the boycott will not have an effect. Sure, but if the winning bidder does engage in the boycott, it will have an effect on cost.

Re:It’s Time to Reaffirm Our First Amendment Right to Boycott by Gibbon1 on Saturday November 26, 2022 @09:27PM (#33759504)
> Saudi Arabia?

If you're a politician you aren't allowed to say anything against them either.

Re:It’s Time to Reaffirm Our First Amendment Right to Boycott by jfengel on Saturday November 26, 2022 @06:13PM (#33757945)
These are state contracts at issue here, not federal ones.
Re:It’s Time to Reaffirm Our First Amendment Right to Boycott by nerdponx on Saturday November 26, 2022 @06:20PM (#33758010)
I missed that, and it's an important detail.
Re:It’s Time to Reaffirm Our First Amendment Right to Boycott by mkoubaa on Saturday November 26, 2022 @06:48PM (#33758265)
The bill of rights enshrine rights that states can not take away from citizens
Re:It’s Time to Reaffirm Our First Amendment Right to Boycott by nerdponx on Saturday November 26, 2022 @08:09PM (#33758930)
Do citizens have a right to enter into business contracts with their state government? They might, but that's for the Supreme Court to decide.
Re:It’s Time to Reaffirm Our First Amendment Right to Boycott by semiquaver on Sunday November 27, 2022 @01:22AM (#33760862)
This is a silly and reductive lens that libertarians often apply. Look at the specific examples cited in the article:

    > the Arkansas Times [...] was asked to sign [a no-boycott certification] in order to renew its advertising contract with a state technical college.
    > A teacher in Kansas was told that she could not participate in the state’s teacher-training program because she refused to sign the anti-boycott form
    > A lawyer in Arizona was told that he could not be paid for his work on behalf of incarcerated people because he refused to sign the certification
    > a child speech pathologist in Texas lost her contract with a local school district because she refused to sign.
    > One town in Texas even briefly required victims of Hurricane Harvey to sign the anti-boycott certification as a condition of receiving disaster relief funds.
It's a grotesque distortion to frame this case as involving the rights of citizens to contract with their state government and I'm certain you know it.
Re:It’s Time to Reaffirm Our First Amendment Right to Boycott by mkoubaa on Sunday November 27, 2022 @12:35PM (#33764764)
I'm sure most people who support these laws would think differently if as a matter of policy a state fired all state contractors (teachers accountants and firefighters, you name it) that were pro life
Re:It’s Time to Reaffirm Our First Amendment Right to Boycott by semiquaver on Saturday November 26, 2022 @06:58PM (#33758369)
In fact it’s not a relevant distinction in this context.

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Incorporation_of_the_Bill_of...

The First Amendment, along with nearly all the rest, applies to the states and the federal government equally.

Re:It’s Time to Reaffirm Our First Amendment Right to Boycott by nerdponx on Saturday November 26, 2022 @08:08PM (#33758926)
My point is that it's not strictly about the first amendment, it's more about political discrimination.
Re:It’s Time to Reaffirm Our First Amendment Right to Boycott by lzooz on Saturday November 26, 2022 @07:03PM (#33758411)
https://twitter.com/aipac/status/1590362232915132417

Just so you know how entrenched Israel (and a certain race) is inside the US government.

Re:It’s Time to Reaffirm Our First Amendment Right to Boycott by crazygringo on Saturday November 26, 2022 @07:10PM (#33758474)
No, it's definitely not a gray area -- it's utterly anti-democratic.

What if the government only awarded contracts to companies who promised not to donate money to Democrat PAC's (or Republican PAC's)?

What if the government only awarded contracts to companies who stayed silent on gay marriage, and didn't normalize it in their advertising?

These strike at the heart of the first amendment. Companies are allowed to engage in political speech/action, and boycotting Israel is precisely that. Some people think Israel is a valuable ally, others think it's a horribly unjust and undemocratic country for its treatment of Palestinians.

The government isn't allowed to favor or disfavor individuals or companies due to their political views. That's a bedrock principle of democracy. That's what the first amendment is about. There's zero gray area in this case.

Re:It’s Time to Reaffirm Our First Amendment Right to Boycott by luckylion on Saturday November 26, 2022 @07:39PM (#33758715)
> What if the government only awarded contracts to companies who stayed silent on gay marriage, and didn't normalize it in their advertising?

But they already do that, don't they? I mean, not anti gay marriage, but pro diversity. For some reason the UCF bought email lists from some entity, and they believe me to be a small business owner in some US state who shares my first name. I occasionally get emails from them asking me to join their diversity-training in order to become eligible as a supplier.

That's pretty old news. The only new thing (and the reason the ACLU cares, I assume) is that it's affecting a view that is currently associated with the left (BDS/anti-semitism/anti-israeli campaigns).

Re:It’s Time to Reaffirm Our First Amendment Right to Boycott by crazygringo on Saturday November 26, 2022 @08:24PM (#33759049)
You're correct in that the only area in the US where governments choose to award contracts in ways that are unrelated to performance is for diversity purposes.

But diversity isn't speech. E.g. if a business is black-owned or female-owned has nothing to do with their political speech/views.

And diversity is a unique case, related to protected classes, having to do with past explicit discrimination against these groups, and trying to remedy that to some small extent.

In any case, it has nothing whatsoever to do with political expression, and therefore nothing to do with the first amendment. And so no, it has nothing to do with left/right either.

Re:It’s Time to Reaffirm Our First Amendment Right to Boycott by luckylion on Sunday November 27, 2022 @05:44AM (#33761984)
I believe that "diversity is our strength and therefore must be expanded" is speech. If you require companies to fulfill some diversity quota, you're doing so because of that belief. The idea itself is part of the current left's canon, so it certainly is political.

It's just something that most here do agree with, so they're fine with it.

Re:It’s Time to Reaffirm Our First Amendment Right to Boycott by crazygringo on Sunday November 27, 2022 @10:04AM (#33763370)
No, you're mixing things up.

Yes that quote is political speech/belief. But it's the expression of the legislature on policy, that is democratically determined, whether you agree with it or not.

It's not the speech of minority-owned businesses. Awarding contracts to take diversity into account is based on who the businesses are owned by, *not* what those businesses say/believe.

You can disagree with awarding contracts based on diversity all you want, just don't claim that doing so has anything to do with free speech or the first amendment, because that's incorrect.

Re:It’s Time to Reaffirm Our First Amendment Right to Boycott by luckylion on Sunday November 27, 2022 @11:26AM (#33764099)
And as far as I understand the policies, you don't need to be minority-owned. You need to have some diversity quota filled and/or promise to get it filled. Like a pledge to do something.

> Yes that quote is political speech/belief. But it's the expression of the legislature on policy, that is democratically determined, whether you agree with it or not.

The same applies to this case, where the democratically elected legislature says you don't get contracts if you say "don't buy from Jews" and passes laws to that effect.

Re:It’s Time to Reaffirm Our First Amendment Right to Boycott by crazygringo on Monday November 28, 2022 @09:27AM (#33773969)
I'm sorry but you're continuing to spread pure misinformation, in case anybody else sees this.

Whether it's minority ownership or affirmative action in its workforce is irrelevant. Employment policy is policy around protected classes, it's not speech.

While your case of 'you don't get contracts if you say "don't buy from Jews"' makes contracts dependent upon speech. Which contradicts the first amendment.

The distinction is not complicated here. You might not like it, but the distinction exists.

Re:It’s Time to Reaffirm Our First Amendment Right to Boycott by jasmer on Saturday November 26, 2022 @07:13PM (#33758492)
Oh, we can absolutely debate their value as an ally.

And if a union wants to boycott Taiwan, or Canada god forbid, they probably should have the right to do so.

It gets a bit more complicated with buyers however, what happens if companies do not want to 'sell to' groups, like 'Republicans' or 'LGBTQ advocates' etc..

I think we probably ought to err on letting people decide who they want to sell and buy from and then be very careful when we interject on that, with a difference to protecting individuals rights, and from specific kinds of harm and/or arbitrary treatment.

Which is all a bit different from the government itself deciding who and who not to buy from.

Re:It’s Time to Reaffirm Our First Amendment Right to Boycott by colordrops on Saturday November 26, 2022 @07:14PM (#33758499)
These boycott laws were not made because the government felt Israel is an important ally, but rather because pro-israel lobbyists pushed for them.
Re:It’s Time to Reaffirm Our First Amendment Right to Boycott by nerdponx on Saturday November 26, 2022 @08:10PM (#33758934)
It would be an interesting argument if the Supreme Court struck down a law on the grounds that it was passed in bad faith. Has that been done before?
Re:It’s Time to Reaffirm Our First Amendment Right to Boycott by colordrops on Saturday November 26, 2022 @09:26PM (#33759499)
Aren't a large amount of laws passed in bad faith? For instance all the acronym laws from congress, like the PATRIOT act. Or the solar tax that is under review in California being pushed by electric companies.
Re:It’s Time to Reaffirm Our First Amendment Right to Boycott by spoonjim on Saturday November 26, 2022 @06:54PM (#33758324)
It’s not at all hard to enforce boycott prohibitions against companies. Above a handful of people, a company that wants to boycott X will need to communicate that, most likely in writing, to their employees.
Re:It’s Time to Reaffirm Our First Amendment Right to Boycott by SpicyLemonZest on Saturday November 26, 2022 @07:02PM (#33758399)
The original antiboycott laws were an unfortunate response to an otherwise intractable issue. Until recently, most countries in the Arab world had both a primary boycott on Israel and a secondary boycott on any company that does business with Israel. So there was a real and pressing concern that some companies might feel they have to boycott Israel, not because they themselves have an issue with the country but because they can't afford to sacrifice the rest of the Middle East market for it. Antiboycott laws were a solution, and a solution that seems to have worked pretty well - the Arab League never explicitly revoked their boycott, but it's virtually unenforced and nobody has to choose between doing business with Israel and doing business with the Arab world.

The new wave of antiboycott laws this article is referring to are much less justified, I think, but you'll note that they're on the same topic in response to still-ongoing efforts by the BDS movement to promote a secondary boycott. So it's not as unreasonable as it would first seem.

Re:It’s Time to Reaffirm Our First Amendment Right to Boycott by hedora on Saturday November 26, 2022 @08:33PM (#33759112)
The article points out that the law is being enforced against individuals.

As an individual, I would definitely support BDS businesses if I could. I'd stop doing so after Israel ended it's eternal war / apartheid system.

The point of a boycott is to allow individuals to force companies to take actions, not to avoid hurting the amorphous feelings of corporations that don't have a problem with the status quo.

Note that a large percentage (and sometimes the majority) of Jewish Israelis disapprove of the onging human rights violations BDS is trying to end.

Re:It’s Time to Reaffirm Our First Amendment Right to Boycott by skybrian on Saturday November 26, 2022 @07:39PM (#33758713)
Here are some possible second-order effects if you can't say that you boycott X in writing.

- It means you can't advertise that you boycott X and get business from other people who also want to boycott X.

- It means you can't require a subcontractor to also boycott X when doing a job for you.