News for hackers. Stuff that matters.
Re:Ask HN: Why isn't remote work advertised as a pro environ... by ibejoeb on Monday November 21, 2022 @11:15AM (#33694201)
I don't intend to de-rail the convo, but this is an important one.

> improve inter-family relationships

It could, maybe, but it can also be a significant source of strife. It's tough spending all day, every day with someone. Because of that, you find that people are either looking for larger homes in order to have private work spaces or renting office space. Both of those shift the cost burden from the company to the individual.

Re:Ask HN: Why isn't remote work advertised as a pro environ... by silverpepsi on Monday November 21, 2022 @11:38AM (#33694525)
Is the term "improve relationships" even appropriate as a "goal" when children are involved? As a 12-17 year old, there was nothing more awesome than having the house to myself, no parents. Relationships were better, as lower contact hours means less harassment and less use of each other as an emotional punching bag.

However, contact hours are desirable for actual child rearing outcomes. Lingusitic development in the early years = has a huge impact on vocabulary development with college-educated parents and for older kids discipline... two brothers grew up being watched like a hawk by my mom. Two younger ones grew up as latchkey kids once she went back to work. Outcomes were quite different.

Re:Ask HN: Why isn't remote work advertised as a pro environ... by bobwaycott on Monday November 21, 2022 @12:35PM (#33695363)
> Is the term "improve relationships" even appropriate as a "goal" when children are involved? … lower contact hours means less harassment and less use of each other as an emotional punching bag.

I’m really sorry this was your childhood. I can heavily relate, as I grew up feeling the same way.

Now, 20+ years and two adult children later, I can say that the best thing I ever did as a parent was make building and improving my relationship with my children my top goal and priority from day one.

They’ve never been my emotional punching bags, or my emotional support animals. I’ve always had my eye on where we are now—them being adults. This is the period I have been intentionally building toward since I was changing diapers.

It means I focused on treating and considering them as their own unique and independent people since before they knew it. My childhood modeled what I absolutely did not want to repeat with my children. This meant I was responsible for modeling how to truly listen, respect, and support their thoughts and decisions; for creating a safe environment; for explaining myself clearly when necessary so they could understand me as a person, without resorting to “because I’m the parent”; and, most importantly, for apologizing when I was the one in the wrong.

I’ve done a lot differently than I experienced growing up, and unless my sons are lying to me (which they don’t do), it’s made all the difference compared to the relationships they see among my parents and extended family.

For most of their childhood, I worked from home. I believe it is part of why I built such a good and healthy relationship that’s now the foundation of all three of us being adults—not least of all because when I screwed up, I could apologize and use all that time to improve the relationship by resolving my mistakes, modeling the respect and love they deserved, and building a better future.

Re:Ask HN: Why isn't remote work advertised as a pro environ... by ljf on Monday November 21, 2022 @11:36AM (#33694499)
You are very right - I am very lucky to have a shed/office I can hide away in and get some great work done in. I'd say it is a far better and more comfortable space than any office I've worked in. But when I had to work at the kitchen table with my wife and family in other rooms in the house it was so much harder.

For those with room, especially if you have a good sized commute, remote working is great (I really really value being able to eat with my kids and hang out in the evening), but you are right that if you are two people in a small 1 bed flat, or a few people in a house share, or just a family in a standard family house, then yes remote working is not always going to be a bonus.

Re:Ask HN: Why isn't remote work advertised as a pro environ... by Asooka on Monday November 21, 2022 @04:55PM (#33698587)
I can't imagine living in a home where every member doesn't have their own quiet/study/work space. I say this as someone who has lived most of his life in apartment buildings where that was a bit challenging, but definitely not impossible. I guess maybe if you are used to living your life outside of the house an just visit to eat and sleep you feel differently, but that's the beauty of WFH - you get to pick what best works for you.
Re:Ask HN: Why isn't remote work advertised as a pro environ... by ljf on Tuesday November 22, 2022 @04:15AM (#33703716)
Very much this, but I've been lucky and riden the house price increases well to end up in a largeish place - but even then if I didn't have a garden office it would be hard.

Two friends if mine move to the nearest city and got a small one bed as they both do a lot out of the flat - theatre, movies, bars, sports etc - so the house was really a place to sleep and shower, plus eat and relax a little.

Home working for them meant losing space in their kitchen/livingroom/dining room - and having one of them work from the bed room.

Inner city UK flats are often very small, and still relatively expensive.

Re:Ask HN: Why isn't remote work advertised as a pro environ... by xwdv on Monday November 21, 2022 @11:37AM (#33694515)
Alternatively, because of the expectation that partners will not be around 24/7, people may have been selecting sub-optimal partners. If remote work becomes the norm your standards for a long term partner may become higher as you need to ensure you do not get tired of being around them.
Re:Ask HN: Why isn't remote work advertised as a pro environ... by wobbly_bush on Monday November 21, 2022 @02:13PM (#33696561)
Interesting point. Would it reduce the "individualism" present in the US? I've always found it interesting how much companies market individualism (specially fashion companies). More intense individualism also makes it harder to find another person who can be tolerated due to their individualism.
Re:Ask HN: Why isn't remote work advertised as a pro environ... by xwdv on Monday November 21, 2022 @04:19PM (#33698073)
I find if a person’s individualism is incompatible with yours, life can be harder for little to no increased benefit.
Re:Ask HN: Why isn't remote work advertised as a pro environ... by MarcoSanto on Monday November 21, 2022 @12:10PM (#33694977)
This. FFS who wants to stay home to live and work!?!? I don’t understand WFH. the right way is to have better public transport and cheaper housing, not secluded lives.
Re:Ask HN: Why isn't remote work advertised as a pro environ... by bojo on Monday November 21, 2022 @12:38PM (#33695401)
I agree with you that better public transportation and cheaper housing would be a respectable path towards a better society in general.

However, please don't state that "the right way is to have... not secluded lives." Some of us absolutely enjoy the seclusion, especially this WFH Alaskan.

Re:Ask HN: Why isn't remote work advertised as a pro environ... by oblio on Monday November 21, 2022 @05:33PM (#33699068)
> Some of us absolutely enjoy the seclusion, especially this WFH Alaskan.

The thing is, you do enjoy it.

Just like people enjoy alcohol and tobacco or having cars.

However, the real question is: is it really good for you, long term?

I'm not sure the answer is clear cut. Humans frequently choose things which are actively harmful to them, at least long term.

Re:Ask HN: Why isn't remote work advertised as a pro environ... by mikestew on Monday November 21, 2022 @05:51PM (#33699279)
“You do enjoy it…just like alcoholics enjoy alcohol.” I mean, assuming I’m reading this correctly, seriously? Let people enjoy their choices, and without pulling questionable comparisons out of thin air. Especially when we aren’t given complete context, as with parent. Don’t take one sentence and then turn around and say, “doesn’t sound healthy”.
Re:Ask HN: Why isn't remote work advertised as a pro environ... by oblio on Monday November 21, 2022 @05:58PM (#33699368)
The entire zeitgeist is that people are more and more isolated and lack a support network.

We can put 2 and 2 together and figure out that physical isolation in environment where people live far apart from each other and drive everywhere is... isolating?

And by the way, there are studies that show that even for introverts, socialization (even forced!) is ultimately good.

We're not made to sit alone in a room in the middle of nowhere. We were born in caves filled with our tribesfolk, dozens and dozens of people living together in small spaces.

Also, who said anything about alcoholics? Alcohol is just bad for you. Anything except for very small amounts has a ton of bad side effects. It's just "grandfathered in" (just like tobacco) and seen as socially acceptable.

Re:Ask HN: Why isn't remote work advertised as a pro environ... by bojo on Wednesday November 23, 2022 @11:41PM (#33727875)
> We're not made to sit alone in a room in the middle of nowhere.

You seem to be implying that people's social lives revolve around work. A lot of us prefer to spend that effort on family, friends, and community during the other 72 hours of the week we are free instead.

I'm 43. Doing things with coworkers isn't even remotely appealing as it was 20 years ago, because at the end of the day they are coworkers and not friends (usually).

Re:Ask HN: Why isn't remote work advertised as a pro environ... by znpy on Monday November 21, 2022 @12:42PM (#33695440)
This only makes sense if you were born and raised in San Francisco, Seattle, Milan, London, Dublin, Munchen, Berlin, Amsterdam or some other big tech city.

Otherwise your statement just doesn’t make sense.

Re:Ask HN: Why isn't remote work advertised as a pro environ... by msmenardi on Monday November 21, 2022 @12:33PM (#33695328)
It'd also be nice if companies were forced to pay for time spent commuting
Re:Ask HN: Why isn't remote work advertised as a pro environ... by lotsofpulp on Monday November 21, 2022 @12:36PM (#33695374)
Obfuscating costs and increasing the complexity makes no sense.

Variable rate tolling on roads to disincentivize unnecessary travel by individual car makes more sense.

Re:Ask HN: Why isn't remote work advertised as a pro environ... by counttheforks on Monday November 21, 2022 @01:05PM (#33695732)
Then the companies will just tell you to suck it up and pay the tax yourself, or they'll find someone else.
Re:Ask HN: Why isn't remote work advertised as a pro environ... by lotsofpulp on Monday November 21, 2022 @01:11PM (#33695797)
And that someone else will also have to pay the tolls.

Therefore both employer and employee will be incentivized to locate in places with higher density housing to reduce costs.

Re:Ask HN: Why isn't remote work advertised as a pro environ... by erik_seaberg on Monday November 21, 2022 @03:06PM (#33697232)
Then to compete we’d have to move more often and pay more for less space to live even closer to the office.
Re:Ask HN: Why isn't remote work advertised as a pro environ... by aaronax on Monday November 21, 2022 @03:17PM (#33697363)
So then their next move would be to mandate that you live within a certain commute range. I don't think we want that.
Re:Ask HN: Why isn't remote work advertised as a pro environ... by asiachick on Monday November 21, 2022 @04:46PM (#33698460)
why? you chose to take the job far from your house.

if companies are forced to pay for the time commuting people will choose to live 20 hours away

Re:Ask HN: Why isn't remote work advertised as a pro environ... by fknorangesite on Monday November 21, 2022 @12:40PM (#33695420)
> secluded lives.

Remember that "pandemic remote work" is not at all normal remote work. I have a social life outside of my coworkers. I can work from places that aren't my home office - a cafe, a coworking space, whatever - even if it's just a couple hours to get out of the house.

It need not be seclusion.

> better public transport and cheaper housing

Yeah, well, no argument from me here.

Re:Ask HN: Why isn't remote work advertised as a pro environ... by vladvasiliu on Monday November 21, 2022 @01:29PM (#33696061)
> I have a social life outside of my coworkers.

This. Even before the pandemic, when I had to waste two hours a day, every day, to go sit my butt in my employer's chair, all my "social life" was strictly with people other than my coworkers.

So being able to get those two hours back, even if not all of them but every other day, is a net gain for me. I can go for a walk, lift some weights, space out on the couch, whatever. It's also much easier to not always eat the same plastic lunch every day, or have to prepare things that are easy to reheat in a microwave.

Re:Ask HN: Why isn't remote work advertised as a pro environ... by heurist on Monday November 21, 2022 @12:48PM (#33695523)
In my current house, my commute would be 1 hour each way if I wasn't working from home. I'd be leaving early and getting home late. I'd have no time with my wife, son, pets. No time for housework/extra projects. I did this commute prior to having a kid and it worked then, but it wouldn't work now.
Re:Ask HN: Why isn't remote work advertised as a pro environ... by Vivtek on Monday November 21, 2022 @01:23PM (#33695975)
Me?

Because "home", for me, while I've been working remotely since 1994, has been Indiana, to Puerto Rico, to Budapest. I go when I want, do a little schedule juggling maybe. And now I live in the tropics in the jungle on a mountain coffee farm - the best place to spend a global pandemic - and I still have an income.

I'll take my seclusion, thanks.

Re:Ask HN: Why isn't remote work advertised as a pro environ... by twobitshifter on Monday November 21, 2022 @01:40PM (#33696193)
If you compare the economic costs of public transport and “cheaper” housing to WFH’s requirement of an internet connection, it’s much more cost effective to work from home. Now we could say that face-to-face interaction outweighs these costs economically, but you’d need the data, and at least in terms of commuting you’ll never beat the ecological footprint of not going anywhere.
Re:Ask HN: Why isn't remote work advertised as a pro environ... by IOT_Apprentice on Monday November 21, 2022 @02:39PM (#33696899)
People aren't going to get better public transport or cheaper housing in the USA. I want to stay home and live and work. I've done it once before over a decade ago and doing it now as a result of the pandemic and I love it.
Re:Ask HN: Why isn't remote work advertised as a pro environ... by oblio on Monday November 21, 2022 @05:34PM (#33699082)
> People aren't going to get better public transport or cheaper housing in the USA.

Not with that attitude :-)

Wasn't the US about a "go getter" attitude? I'm not even an American, but that's the general perception.

Re:Ask HN: Why isn't remote work advertised as a pro environ... by maerF0x0 on Monday November 21, 2022 @02:56PM (#33697097)
> This. FFS....

Not this FFS.

Who says remote work means you have to stay home all the time? Stay home to work and make sure you leave at least once, ideally two or three times a day!

In the morning for a walk or workout or coffee break.

At lunch just to breath some air.

At 5PM[1] sharp laptops closed to reconnect with some of your favorite humans, not necessarily the same ones you live with.

[1]: or whatever hard stop you craft for yourself.

Re:Ask HN: Why isn't remote work advertised as a pro environ... by deckard1 on Monday November 21, 2022 @04:27PM (#33698192)
> It's tough spending all day, every day with someone

You literally do this with coworkers in an office. Except, you didn't get to pick those people and you have to be even physically closer to them. The last office I worked in was an open floor plan and the guy three feet next to me typed so hard I thought he would break his keyboard. And he was on a rubber dome!! It was louder than the loudest mechanical keyboard. Before that I sat next to the sales department. They would talk loudly on the phone for 8 straight hours. One time my desk was next to the break room. You like hearing people talk all day long?

> in order to have private work spaces

With open floor plans the only privacy you get is when you put on your headphones. Anyone walking by still sees your screen and wearing headphones all day is not great for your health.

Re:Ask HN: Why isn't remote work advertised as a pro environ... by ibejoeb on Monday November 21, 2022 @04:42PM (#33698396)
Most people do not live around the clock in an office. Many people spend entire days at their homes because there is nowhere else to go.

None of this goes to suggest that the bad aspects of offices are better.

Re:Ask HN: Why isn't remote work advertised as a pro environ... by wesapien on Wednesday November 23, 2022 @02:02AM (#33716070)
Less people are making offspring so no need to improve families. A dog or cat is a pet.