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Re:Genesis' Crypto-Lending Unit Is Suspending Withdrawals in... by birracerveza on Wednesday November 16, 2022 @09:29AM (#33623523)
Anyone who still has any significant amount of money in any CEX, Coinbase included, is either not paying attention or irredeemably naive.

It's especially tiresome the fact that people keep pointing at these disasters claiming "crypto has failed", when reality is the exact opposite: CEXs are the exact antithesis of the core crypto idea of decentralizing trust. "Not your keys, not your coins" is being continually being proven right.

Re:Genesis' Crypto-Lending Unit Is Suspending Withdrawals in... by danuker on Wednesday November 16, 2022 @09:37AM (#33623650)
Not your keys, not your coins.

Also, be mindful of what the FDIC (or its equivalent in your country) insures per bank account. It might be worth it to use multiple accounts.

Re:Genesis' Crypto-Lending Unit Is Suspending Withdrawals in... by ncallaway on Wednesday November 16, 2022 @09:45AM (#33623807)
Please be aware that the FDIC *does not insure against losses from these exchanges*.

Do not put money into any crypto exchange, relying on the FDIC to protect you in the event the exchange goes bust.

Re:Genesis' Crypto-Lending Unit Is Suspending Withdrawals in... by danuker on Wednesday November 16, 2022 @09:47AM (#33623840)
You are correct. What I was pointing out is that actual regulated banks are also prone to failures, especially in these trying times. Because they also hold a fractional reserve.
Re:Genesis' Crypto-Lending Unit Is Suspending Withdrawals in... by marticode on Wednesday November 16, 2022 @10:00AM (#33624146)
In developed countries, banks are rarely left to completely fail nowadays, the small ones are usually taken over by the big ones, and the big ones are bailed by governments/regulators.
Re:Genesis' Crypto-Lending Unit Is Suspending Withdrawals in... by roywiggins on Wednesday November 16, 2022 @10:37AM (#33624831)
Yes, I'm not sure the FDIC deposit insurance per se (and the attendant limits on what it covers) has actually been invoked in recent memory- the banks that failed in 2008 were just taken over by bigger banks, which were themselves handed cash to stay afloat.
Re:Genesis' Crypto-Lending Unit Is Suspending Withdrawals in... by birracerveza on Wednesday November 16, 2022 @10:10AM (#33624322)
It's not a problem, until it is. Mh, sounds familiar.
Re:Genesis' Crypto-Lending Unit Is Suspending Withdrawals in... by lxgr on Wednesday November 16, 2022 @11:38AM (#33625986)
Rarely isn't never: https://www.fdic.gov/resources/resolutions/bank-failures/fai...

That list seems to include buyouts, though, i.e. cases in which the FDIC didn't actually have to directly disburse funds.

In Europe, there were two bank failures that I know of in the last few years that required tapping into the regional FDIC equivalents. In at least one of them, quite a few depositors actually lost money (due to having savings in excess of the insured maximum).

Re:Genesis' Crypto-Lending Unit Is Suspending Withdrawals in... by jmalicki on Wednesday November 16, 2022 @02:07PM (#33628716)
In quite a few buyout cases, the buyer only buys what's left after the FDIC pays out any losses. The FDIC prefers to do it this way since having an intact set of customers is valuable to the acquiring bank and helps defer the cost and especially administrative overhead of disbursing insured funds.

"Purchase and Assumption Transaction. This is the preferred and most common method, under which a healthy bank assumes the insured deposits of the failed bank. Insured depositors of the failed bank immediately become depositors of the assuming bank and have access to their insured funds. The assuming bank may also purchase loans and other assets of the failed bank."

https://www.fdic.gov/consumers/banking/facts/payment.html

Re:Genesis' Crypto-Lending Unit Is Suspending Withdrawals in... by shkkmo on Wednesday November 16, 2022 @10:16AM (#33624412)
We haven't seen any indication that a wave of bank failures is coming. We haven't seen any failed banks in a couple of years.

Now, that could change and we could see a recurrence of the wave of bank failures that started in 2008 and slowly tapered off, but you argument for that can't just be a hand wave at "trying times" and "fractional reserve" because the numbers currently show the opposite: https://www.fdic.gov/bank/historical/bank/

Still smart to keep total accounts per type per bank under the insurance limit (currently $250,0000), and to directly verify that your accounts are actually insured using the FDIC's tool: https://closedbanks.fdic.gov/aii/

Re:Genesis' Crypto-Lending Unit Is Suspending Withdrawals in... by kmonsen on Wednesday November 16, 2022 @10:30AM (#33624702)
Did any depositors loose money in 2008 from bank failures? If not when was the last time regular depositors lost money?
Re:Genesis' Crypto-Lending Unit Is Suspending Withdrawals in... by roywiggins on Wednesday November 16, 2022 @10:39AM (#33624881)
Right, even US depositors over the FDIC insurance limit didn't lose money in 2008 as far as I remember? The failing banks got taken over by bigger banks, which were bailed out as necessary.
Re:Genesis' Crypto-Lending Unit Is Suspending Withdrawals in... by shkkmo on Wednesday November 16, 2022 @11:49AM (#33626219)
I don't think that information is public to protect privacy...but any balances over the limit in a failed bank would result in non-insured losses.
Re:Genesis' Crypto-Lending Unit Is Suspending Withdrawals in... by jmalicki on Wednesday November 16, 2022 @01:38PM (#33628218)
That's actually not true [1] - the FDIC has continued the practice of covering balances over the insured limit despite not being required to.

[1] https://www.americanbanker.com/opinion/will-fdic-keep-protec...

Re:Genesis' Crypto-Lending Unit Is Suspending Withdrawals in... by shkkmo on Wednesday November 16, 2022 @07:54PM (#33633443)
Interesting, glad they're doing that but ok probably best not to count on that policy if you don't have to.
Re:Genesis' Crypto-Lending Unit Is Suspending Withdrawals in... by danuker on Wednesday November 16, 2022 @11:50AM (#33626246)
In 2008, no. "No depositor in an American bank lost a penny to a bank failure." [1]

But they were bailed-out by larger banks, and eventually the taxpayer. Next time, there might be bail-ins instead. [2]

[1] - https://www.investopedia.com/articles/economics/09/financial...

[2] - https://www.investopedia.com/articles/markets-economy/090716...

Re:Genesis' Crypto-Lending Unit Is Suspending Withdrawals in... by 1970-01-01 on Wednesday November 16, 2022 @10:10AM (#33624319)
Crypto ads all said this was the future. Sizzle sells, skeptics survive.
Re:Genesis' Crypto-Lending Unit Is Suspending Withdrawals in... by birracerveza on Wednesday November 16, 2022 @10:26AM (#33624626)
Crypto banks' ads*
Re:Genesis' Crypto-Lending Unit Is Suspending Withdrawals in... by awinder on Wednesday November 16, 2022 @10:22AM (#33624548)
If it makes you feel any better, it’s extremely tiresome to a different cohort to see people make the claim that the future of finance is stuffing cash under the mattress and burying gold bars in their backyards
Re:Genesis' Crypto-Lending Unit Is Suspending Withdrawals in... by birracerveza on Wednesday November 16, 2022 @10:41AM (#33624917)
IMO it's the future of finance because you own your coins. Nothing else aside from crypto allows me to do so in digital form. You are free to disagree, even if you think it's digital beanie babies or whatever. Luckily in this case you can vote with your wallet, as I did.
Re:Genesis' Crypto-Lending Unit Is Suspending Withdrawals in... by horsawlarway on Wednesday November 16, 2022 @10:59AM (#33625289)
Real question - why do you believe that "owning" your own coins matters?

Further - why do you believe that ownership is related at all to the fact that you can keep ledger entry with your wallet on it?

Ownership !== ledger entries. Ownership is a shared concept enforced by social constructs. It is not a fucking technical matter solved by a ledger.

EX: You sign a contract to send me 1 bitcoin in exchange for my car. I give you the car, but you never send me the bitcoin.

Who owns the coin? Because the ledger is going to let you spend it, but the courts are going to give me your shit. Same in reverse - I get your coin and then drive off with the car. Do I own the coin now? Because again - the ledger says yes, but our concept of ownership includes the idea of dispute and fraud - and the ledger doesn't fucking know or care.

Basically - your idea of "ownership" being limited to "my wallet, my coins" is both limited, childish, and insufficient.

Re:Genesis' Crypto-Lending Unit Is Suspending Withdrawals in... by birracerveza on Wednesday November 16, 2022 @11:39AM (#33626018)
You're still bound by meat-space and the rules of the universe. If someone gets in your house and beats you with a $5 wrench until you give him your seed phrase, you're still relying on the police to catch the thief, ledger or not.

However, you're also not bound by arbitrary rules by arbitrary people that may or may not hold their end of the deal. YOU own your Bitcoin, and until YOU send it to someone it's YOURS. On the other hand, money in the bank is "yours", but they can freeze your money anytime for whatever reason, or change the terms because whatever.

"It doesn't happen", sure. Until it does. And fyi "then it means you deserved it" is an excuse that reeks of first-world privilege.

Even if Bitcoin won't become the world currency, the concept of "ownership" can be useful elsewhere, especially games. Lots of games have "gems" or whatever currency the game uses. But you don't "own" these "gems", they're just a number on a database that you paid the company for. Not unlike Bitcoin, yes, but you have the added bonus of being able to exchange them freely. It's a net upgrade. The same applies to skins: you pay Epic Games for a Fortnite skin but... it's stuck there. You cannot trade it because you don't "own" it. With NFTs you do. I'd spend $10 on a skin if they gave me an NFT that I could eventually sell instead of a database entry. Out of the two options, the Postgres database is more of a scam if you think about it.

Re:Genesis' Crypto-Lending Unit Is Suspending Withdrawals in... by ALittleLight on Wednesday November 16, 2022 @12:04PM (#33626516)
Why would game companies want you to be able to resell their in-game cosmetics? They could make that possible now, but don't.
Re:Genesis' Crypto-Lending Unit Is Suspending Withdrawals in... by AlexandrB on Wednesday November 16, 2022 @12:21PM (#33626793)
Steam makes it possible, but this has also created a gambling black market: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eMmNy11Mn7g

Anything that can be easily traded for currency can also act as currency so you quickly fall down the KYC rabbit hole if you want to - for example - keep children from gambling.

Re:Genesis' Crypto-Lending Unit Is Suspending Withdrawals in... by AlexandrB on Wednesday November 16, 2022 @12:11PM (#33626649)
I suggest reading Man's Search for Meaning[1]. That book made me realize that almost all freedoms are contingent on a functioning and just society. No amount of blockchain technology can change that - you will always be bound by arbitrary rules made by arbitrary people. The only freedom that might be absolute is the content of your own thoughts and how you perceive and react to your conditions.

So the question is: is money on a blockchain any more yours in a meaningful sense that money in a bank? Sure there's a record on a ledger that you have some bitcoin, but the value of that currency can be manipulated, you can be coerced into transferring those funds to someone else, or your currency can be blacklisted[2].

With the example of games, you can be banned or the item you "own" can be banned arbitrarily as well. Nothing on blockchain prevents the game from keeping a blacklist of items that are not allowed to be used. Sure you can trade stuff (maybe), but that's already possible on e.g. Steam. IMHO, one of the biggest outcomes of that has been illegal gambling rings that use CS: GO items as a proxy for currency - which is hardly a positive development.

[1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Man%27s_Search_for_Meaning

[2] https://cryptoslate.com/despite-tornado-cash-fiasco-bitcoin-...

Re:Genesis' Crypto-Lending Unit Is Suspending Withdrawals in... by horsawlarway on Wednesday November 16, 2022 @12:37PM (#33627090)
Follow this to its conclusion - you "own" the coins, but they're on a hard drive hidden somewhere while you rot in jail for fraud. Do you own those coins?

Can you functionally use them in the way you intend to?

Are they fungible currency for which you have access to goods and services (hah! they're not that even now...)

You don't get to "opt out" from society with a clever technical trick and some cryptography. For better or worse, we're in this together.

Society is not a thing you can delegate to other people. It's literally the deal we're all working with as a group. If you think the group is making bad decisions... make a compelling argument and put it in front of the group. Or Leave. Or rebel.

The ledger entry doesn't do you much good when you're bound by the covenants of the society you live in, and they think the ledger is wrong.

---

The only place it may help is if you plan on intentionally breaking the covenants (ex: committing crime and fraud, such as black market deals - where I do actually believe crypto has a compelling use case [and have used it for such on the og silk road]). But now it's just a twist on the "rebel" category, and governments can and will treat it as such (see: China).

Re:Genesis' Crypto-Lending Unit Is Suspending Withdrawals in... by giaour on Wednesday November 16, 2022 @11:31AM (#33625858)
This is why the car of the future will only start when presented with a key NFT. /s
Re:Genesis' Crypto-Lending Unit Is Suspending Withdrawals in... by blitzar on Wednesday November 16, 2022 @11:47AM (#33626170)
Not your keys, not your car.