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Re:FTX’s financial black hole leaves Binance balking at resc... by londons_explore on Wednesday November 09, 2022 @01:36PM (#33535935)
Tends to be imagined value...

But imagined value that, if you play your cards right, you might be able to convert into real dollars. Leaving someone else with the imagined value instead.

Re:FTX’s financial black hole leaves Binance balking at resc... by mumbisChungo on Wednesday November 09, 2022 @01:43PM (#33536038)
yes, much like the stock market
Re:FTX’s financial black hole leaves Binance balking at resc... by fourseventy on Wednesday November 09, 2022 @02:22PM (#33536564)
In the stock market you own stock in real companies that make real products like cars, not bitcoin fairydust
Re:FTX’s financial black hole leaves Binance balking at resc... by mumbisChungo on Wednesday November 09, 2022 @03:02PM (#33537063)
Regardless of how you feel about bitcoin, there are plenty of revenue generating products and services in the industry, serving both B2B and B2C clientele.
Re:FTX’s financial black hole leaves Binance balking at resc... by TomSwirly on Wednesday November 09, 2022 @03:18PM (#33537266)
Generating revenue how?

If you say, "Selling cryptocoins to others", that isn't actually a product or service.

Re:FTX’s financial black hole leaves Binance balking at resc... by mumbisChungo on Wednesday November 09, 2022 @03:47PM (#33537601)
off the top of my head:

Oracle (READ: aggregated/decentralized APIs feed) services and other infrastructure that supports decentralized protocols (network graph, etc.)

Decentralized lending, borrowing, trading.

SaaS products in on-chain analytics, portfolio management, commerce aggreggation.

Gaming

Fine Art (a tiny minority of the art scene in crypto is pretty interesting, ex. distributed multiplayer run-time art, something that can't really exist outside of the medium)

Digital Collectibles as an end consumer product or in service of the construction of lifestyle brand / gaming / etc startups. (A lot of the most boring use cases land here, imo)

Advertising

Content creation/consumption

Re:FTX’s financial black hole leaves Binance balking at resc... by lmm on Wednesday November 09, 2022 @07:26PM (#33540387)
On-chain financial stuff is just more speculation, and the vast majority of the gaming/art/collectible/advertising/content use cases are just stapling crypto onto something where it brings no benefit and often actually makes it worse.

There's a tiny sliver of cases where crypto brings real value by enabling something that you couldn't do without it (e.g. cryptokitties was genuinely novel and interesting). But it's just such a vanishingly small proportion of the ecosystem.

Re:FTX’s financial black hole leaves Binance balking at resc... by yashg on Thursday November 10, 2022 @01:41AM (#33543053)
>>Decentralized lending, borrowing, trading.

When I take a loan from a bank, I may use it for education, a vacation, medical emergency, a car or invest in a business which will generate revenue and employment.

What do people do with tokens they borrow in "DeFi"? Given that the tokens can't be used for paying college tuition or a hospital bills or rent or buying a machine?

Re:FTX’s financial black hole leaves Binance balking at resc... by UncleEntity on Wednesday November 09, 2022 @03:27PM (#33537376)
Which has absolutely nothing to do with the topic at hand.

Ownership of bitcoins doesn’t give you ownership over these entities the same as ownership over some shares of Apple.

It’s like saying that you having dollars in your pocket gives you ownership over the White House.

Re:FTX’s financial black hole leaves Binance balking at resc... by mumbisChungo on Wednesday November 09, 2022 @03:36PM (#33537466)
The topic at hand, per the comment I responded to, is imagined value. Imagined value was the subject of my comparison.

Regarding ownership, however, you can explicitly own things- or parts of things- on the basis of token ownership, but you’re right that this isn’t the way that bitcoin and many other technologies are structured.

Re:FTX’s financial black hole leaves Binance balking at resc... by legutierr on Wednesday November 09, 2022 @03:25PM (#33537349)
You mean, like Enron? Lehman Brothers?
Re:FTX’s financial black hole leaves Binance balking at resc... by mumbisChungo on Wednesday November 09, 2022 @04:10PM (#33537877)
No, only good examples from equities please.

And only bad ones from crypto.

Re:FTX’s financial black hole leaves Binance balking at resc... by majani on Thursday November 10, 2022 @12:51AM (#33542782)
The average tech share is a non-voting share in a loss making company selling bits on the internet with the promise of a bright future. Barely any difference with crypto
Re:FTX’s financial black hole leaves Binance balking at resc... by rococode on Wednesday November 09, 2022 @02:20PM (#33536529)
No, not at all like the stock market, which has real mechanisms for getting real cash paid by real consumers in real life for real products into the hands of stockholders.

Do people speculate on it more than they probably should? Sure. But at the heart of the stock market is a system of "I just sold a physical thing for $1000, and since you own the stock you get $0.00001 of that". At the heart of crypto is "my computer did some math, so... money".

Re:FTX’s financial black hole leaves Binance balking at resc... by mumbisChungo on Wednesday November 09, 2022 @02:45PM (#33536849)
At the heart of crypto is the desire for decentralized banking infrastructure and currency, which has non-zero cost to operate and thus requires some degree of compensation for operating the network or protocol.

Just like in the equities market, speculation and gambling dominates market values of these things to varying degrees (to a comical extent in growth tech recently, for example).

Re:FTX’s financial black hole leaves Binance balking at resc... by lmm on Wednesday November 09, 2022 @07:22PM (#33540346)
> At the heart of crypto is the desire for decentralized banking infrastructure and currency, which has non-zero cost to operate and thus requires some degree of compensation for operating the network or protocol.

But where's the value being delivered by that "decentralized banking infrastructure and currency"? Actual usefulness of crypto for genuinely decentralised (i.e. L1) transactions has been going down not up (fees are higher than ever, fewer and fewer stores allow direct payment with cryptocurrency...).

Re:FTX’s financial black hole leaves Binance balking at resc... by liber8 on Wednesday November 09, 2022 @03:13PM (#33537202)
How do you view public companies that have never paid a dividend and never intend to do so?
Re:FTX’s financial black hole leaves Binance balking at resc... by ericbarrett on Wednesday November 09, 2022 @03:29PM (#33537394)
Many companies which don't pay dividends still do periodic share buybacks. Investors like this because dividends are taxed at distribution.
Re:FTX’s financial black hole leaves Binance balking at resc... by cuteboy19 on Wednesday November 09, 2022 @03:24PM (#33537330)
Can you give an example
Re:FTX’s financial black hole leaves Binance balking at resc... by saveferris on Wednesday November 09, 2022 @04:02PM (#33537778)
Re:FTX’s financial black hole leaves Binance balking at resc... by cuteboy19 on Wednesday November 09, 2022 @11:25PM (#33542183)
Buybacks are mathematically equivalent to dividend
Re:FTX’s financial black hole leaves Binance balking at resc... by Analemma_ on Wednesday November 09, 2022 @02:19PM (#33536515)
No, not at all like the stock market. Shares of stock grant you partial ownership of a corporation with assets and income. Tokens give you partial ownership of fuck-all.
Re:FTX’s financial black hole leaves Binance balking at resc... by eniotna on Wednesday November 09, 2022 @02:48PM (#33536892)
Asset and income denominated in some currency which is also an imaginary concept that we decided to all agree on was worth something. Not much different if you ask me
Re:FTX’s financial black hole leaves Binance balking at resc... by mumbisChungo on Wednesday November 09, 2022 @02:57PM (#33537004)
>Tokens give you partial ownership of fuck-all.

This is not entirely accurate. The "crypto" industry is not a monolithic piece of technology or implementation. Some tokens provide governance, which is a proxy for legal ownership. Some tokens provide ownership directly or contain trustless, immutable access to assets.

I personally find decentralized programmable networks like ethereum- where it's sort of choose your own adventure in regard to utility, ownership, implementation, et cetera- to be more interesting than bitcoin.

Re:FTX’s financial black hole leaves Binance balking at resc... by ignoramous on Wednesday November 09, 2022 @03:03PM (#33537071)
> ...yes, much like the stock market

Companies like Coinbase are selling turtles all the way down, then.

Re:FTX’s financial black hole leaves Binance balking at resc... by jjtheblunt on Wednesday November 09, 2022 @03:21PM (#33537297)
no, stocks are actually paid for with fiat ultimately
Re:FTX’s financial black hole leaves Binance balking at resc... by yashg on Thursday November 10, 2022 @01:32AM (#33543012)
No. Stock market may look like a ponzi where one buys stocks in companies only in the hope of selling them to higher value to someone else at a later date, the value itself doesn't come from that. The value comes from future prospects of a company's actual business. A company's shares can't go on rising infinitely if it has no solid business. Why is Meta sinking? The fundamentals of its core business are looking vulnerable. Why do companies like Apple/Microsoft/Google/Amazon eventually rise? Because they are market leaders, have strong profits and they keep innovating.

Even if a company is loss making and doesn't pay dividend, there will be someone who would be interested in acquiring the company to actually run it and not just just to flip it to a bigger buyer at a later date. That is why Musk paid $44B for Twitter. Because after all is said and done, it is still the most influential social network amongst the people who matter. Owning it has a value for someone like Musk. That value comes from the activity that Twitter conducts and not the demand for its shares.

In crypto value comes only from the demand. In stock, demand comes from the value being generated by the company.