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Re:Theranos Founder Elizabeth Holmes Is Denied a Bid for New... by Overtonwindow on Tuesday November 08, 2022 @12:16PM (#33521461)
I am still very suspicious that she will not go to prison. I was frankly shocked that the jury found her guilty. She has a lot of privilege, and Justice has been shown to very kind to such people.
Re:Theranos Founder Elizabeth Holmes Is Denied a Bid for New... by pyuser583 on Tuesday November 08, 2022 @12:39PM (#33521776)
I mean think of it this way: if she’s not imprisoned, what are the odds she’ll commit another crime?

If I had to come up with “fair” sentencing criteria, it would be “what’s the least restrictive way we can make sure this person doesn’t pose a danger to society and people are discouraged from similar acts.”

She’s suffered huge and profound consequences for her actions. She won’t be able to commit a similar crime.

Real problem is that poor criminals don’t get a fair sentence.

Re:Theranos Founder Elizabeth Holmes Is Denied a Bid for New... by __derek__ on Tuesday November 08, 2022 @12:55PM (#33521976)
Tim Draper has continued to defend her and maintain that Theranos was legitimate, and some big-name VCs appear to have gotten more comfortable cutting big checks to possible frauds. I suspect she'll have an opportunity to commit a similar crime if she's so inclined.
Re:Theranos Founder Elizabeth Holmes Is Denied a Bid for New... by jjtheblunt on Tuesday November 08, 2022 @01:03PM (#33522077)
How he's not been taken legally out of circulation for his involvement is amazing.
Re:Theranos Founder Elizabeth Holmes Is Denied a Bid for New... by projektfu on Tuesday November 08, 2022 @02:25PM (#33523125)
A lot of other frauds seem to be more about creating an aura of wonder and a cult of personality that people invest in, and they are smart enough not to make specific claims. For example, "you'll be in on the ground floor of this rocket" is entirely metaphorical if there is no floor and no rocket. "The Army is using this machine on the battlefield with Med-Evac teams" is a potentially fraudulent statement without a lot of nuance, and you can't walk it back by saying what you mean is that someone you were talking to in the DOD mentioned the finished product could be useful for them.
Re:Theranos Founder Elizabeth Holmes Is Denied a Bid for New... by sidewndr46 on Tuesday November 08, 2022 @01:15PM (#33522235)
> She’s suffered huge and profound consequences for her actions.

Like what? Life seems to have gone on as normal for her, other than having to make a bunch of court appearances.

Re:Theranos Founder Elizabeth Holmes Is Denied a Bid for New... by lotsofpulp on Tuesday November 08, 2022 @02:25PM (#33523127)
Even found herself a spouse to have 2 kids with while on her journey through the criminal court system. Actually kind of impressive.
Re:Theranos Founder Elizabeth Holmes Is Denied a Bid for New... by tgv on Tuesday November 08, 2022 @01:15PM (#33522244)
Another important aspect of a sentence is scaring off. When she gets 18 months, scamming people out of 1.4 billion dollar suddenly becomes a lot more attractive. Well, for attractive, innocent looking women at least.
Re:Theranos Founder Elizabeth Holmes Is Denied a Bid for New... by teachrdan on Tuesday November 08, 2022 @01:19PM (#33522294)
> If I had to come up with “fair” sentencing criteria, it would be “what’s the least restrictive way we can make sure this person doesn’t pose a danger to society and people are discouraged from similar acts.”

This is a bad take imo. There's also a need for punishments to deter future misconduct by others.

If I, as a hypothetical startup founder, know that I can defraud my investors (among other things!) at the risk of just an embarrassing trial, I am much more likely to engage in fraud than if I risk GOING TO FEDERAL PRISON.

I'm generally not a huge fan of incarceration. But in the case of those whose crimes are premeditated and serious -- and who had every advantage growing up -- I think some prison time is appropriate.

Re:Theranos Founder Elizabeth Holmes Is Denied a Bid for New... by pyuser583 on Tuesday November 08, 2022 @01:43PM (#33522635)
Sorry I wasn’t clear. I had said:

> “what’s the least restrictive way we can make sure … people are discouraged from similar acts.”

But I really should have broken it into two sentences or a list.

Re:Theranos Founder Elizabeth Holmes Is Denied a Bid for New... by AlexandrB on Tuesday November 08, 2022 @01:22PM (#33522345)
> She’s suffered huge and profound consequences for her actions.

Such as? Any financial and reputational damage she's suffered just put her back on the same level as us mere mortals. Indeed, she's still able to afford the expensive legal team that's litigating these appeals. Something most of us couldn't do.

Re:Theranos Founder Elizabeth Holmes Is Denied a Bid for New... by BiteCode_dev on Tuesday November 08, 2022 @01:25PM (#33522387)
Agreed, but the part where we discourage similar act is very related to the prison time she will do. Anything else will not discourage other people to scam, because worst case scenario you just loose reputation and money, but best case scenario you are a billionaire.

Given how bad those scams are for society, it's the discouraging is very important, and a strong message should be sent.

Re:Theranos Founder Elizabeth Holmes Is Denied a Bid for New... by s1artibartfast on Tuesday November 08, 2022 @04:22PM (#33524489)
How many people do you think harsher sentences would make a deterrent difference for?

The number of tech CEOs is small. Of those, what percent do you think would be ok With fraud if it were only 18 months years in prison? What is the change if it were >18 months?

Are any choices being changed at all?

I think it is basic misunderstanding of the human mind.

Re:Theranos Founder Elizabeth Holmes Is Denied a Bid for New... by notch656a on Tuesday November 08, 2022 @05:09PM (#33525016)
I have family in the third world. They routinely pick something akin to "go to prison for X months" (AKA work as crew on a wretched, poor conditions merchant ship) for what in their country looks like a fat stash of money.

Based on these observations I'm quite certain the length of time makes a difference. I'm quite certain that the ones that stomach several months would not be willing to be gone for 10x that. There's a reason why even in desperate wars soldiers are allowed to return to families at least once a year or so.

Re:Theranos Founder Elizabeth Holmes Is Denied a Bid for New... by MichaelCollins on Tuesday November 08, 2022 @02:36PM (#33523244)
> She’s suffered huge and profound consequences for her actions.

She hasn't even been sentenced yet! You're only saying this because she's a pretty woman. You're not saying it about Sunny Balwani.

Re:Theranos Founder Elizabeth Holmes Is Denied a Bid for New... by HyperSane on Tuesday November 08, 2022 @04:30PM (#33524581)
"She’s suffered huge and profound consequences for her actions."

She actually conned a very rich sucker into marrying her and having a child with her so she is set for life.

Re:Theranos Founder Elizabeth Holmes Is Denied a Bid for New... by ch4s3 on Tuesday November 08, 2022 @12:37PM (#33521754)
Almost no one beats federal charges, because if the they're coming after you they'll have an airtight case before you ever go to trial. They'll put the screws to everyone you know, your bank, your dog, your coffee shop to get the evidence they need. If they think there's even a chance you'll beat the charge, they just don't bring the case.
Re:Theranos Founder Elizabeth Holmes Is Denied a Bid for New... by Mechanical9 on Tuesday November 08, 2022 @01:05PM (#33522096)
I'm curious what these trip-ups look like, if anyone has the relevant info to share here. It seems easy to make the argument that the FBI is just tricking people, but I suspect that the lies people are caught in are much more sinister.
Re:Theranos Founder Elizabeth Holmes Is Denied a Bid for New... by xsmasher on Tuesday November 08, 2022 @01:12PM (#33522199)
https://www.newsweek.com/michael-flynn-martha-stewart-charge...

Related, from another article:

> a federal jury found Stewart, who maintained her innocence, guilty of conspiracy, obstruction and two counts of lying to federal investigators (a securities fraud charge was dismissed)

The original charge didn't stick, but they convicted on statements made to the FBI during the investigation.

Re:Theranos Founder Elizabeth Holmes Is Denied a Bid for New... by ch4s3 on Tuesday November 08, 2022 @01:46PM (#33522682)
As the other comment pointed out, they have a set of very particular facts and will press you with questions about dates, times, amounts, who, what, where, and when. If you say a not true statement about one of those things they charge you with lying. The relevant law is 18 U.S. CODE § 1001. It's 3 pronged and the 2nd says "makes any materially false, fictitious, or fraudulent statement or representation; or". I don't believe there is a requirement in this law for criminal intent, caveat IANAL.
Re:Theranos Founder Elizabeth Holmes Is Denied a Bid for New... by nradov on Tuesday November 08, 2022 @04:32PM (#33524601)
Suspects often trip themselves up lying to federal law enforcement officers about stuff that's not even really sinister or criminal. They tell small lies to avoid embarrassment or make themselves look better. People tell little white lies all the time in regular conversations and find it hard to break the habit when being interrogated by the FBI. Then when they get caught in a minor discrepancy they double down with bigger lies and dig themselves into an even deeper hole.
Re:Theranos Founder Elizabeth Holmes Is Denied a Bid for New... by nordsieck on Tuesday November 08, 2022 @01:23PM (#33522362)
> I'd suggest you read a bit that Ken White has written about federal prosecutions. Basically if they really want you, they'll trip you up in interviews and charge you with lying to the FBI.

This is just another reason to take the wargames advice when it comes to talking to the police:

> The only winning move is not to play.

Use your right to remain silent.

And for those who haven't seen it: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=d-7o9xYp7eE

Re:Theranos Founder Elizabeth Holmes Is Denied a Bid for New... by ch4s3 on Tuesday November 08, 2022 @01:49PM (#33522696)
Yeah, for sure. Even if you just want to be a good citizen it's in your best interest to steer clear of FBI questioning in general. They'll squeeze you hard if they think you know something valuable, even if you in fact know nothing. They're incentivized to do so, and face no repercussions if they're wrong.
Re:Theranos Founder Elizabeth Holmes Is Denied a Bid for New... by Cupertino95014 on Tuesday November 08, 2022 @12:20PM (#33521515)
Now do Martha Stewart.
Re:Theranos Founder Elizabeth Holmes Is Denied a Bid for New... by pseudolus on Tuesday November 08, 2022 @12:29PM (#33521645)
The conviction of Martha Stewart didn't relate to any of the principal claims made against her but rather fell under the catchall "obstruction" and "lying to investigators". That she, rather than many of her much more connected and culpable contemporaries, went to prison is something of a travesty.
Re:Theranos Founder Elizabeth Holmes Is Denied a Bid for New... by Cupertino95014 on Tuesday November 08, 2022 @12:39PM (#33521774)
You're right, and she should have obeyed what 18 million viewers of this

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=d-7o9xYp7eE

know: don't talk to police, period.

Anyhow, it belies the notion that privileged white people don't go to prison. I actually know someone who did, and it wasn't for some catchall gotcha charge.

I'm willing to put money on the line right now saying that Lizzie will go to prison.

Re:Theranos Founder Elizabeth Holmes Is Denied a Bid for New... by tibbydudeza on Tuesday November 08, 2022 @12:50PM (#33521920)
Snoop Dog loves her - she did her time and did not snitch :).
Re:Theranos Founder Elizabeth Holmes Is Denied a Bid for New... by Overtonwindow on Tuesday November 08, 2022 @01:01PM (#33522055)
Five months at the most comfortable female prison camp and five months on her horse farm? That's not exactly doing hard time. Also, Martha's crimes compared to Holmes were a lot less severe. I contend that you or I would have faced a much harsher sentence.
Re:Theranos Founder Elizabeth Holmes Is Denied a Bid for New... by sidewndr46 on Tuesday November 08, 2022 @01:19PM (#33522291)
From what I remember Martha was only convicted of lying to prosecutors
Re:Theranos Founder Elizabeth Holmes Is Denied a Bid for New... by dartdartdart on Tuesday November 08, 2022 @12:20PM (#33521512)
white, woman, rich, prestigious university, prestigious job, photogenic

She will make out just fine

Re:Theranos Founder Elizabeth Holmes Is Denied a Bid for New... by filoleg on Tuesday November 08, 2022 @12:24PM (#33521585)
> photogenic

Maybe I am taking crazy pills, but even Unabomber at his unshaven peak (far from what most people would consider photogenic) was appearing more sane and photogenic than Holmes in her own promo photoshoots.

Agreed with your ultimate conclusion though. No matter how you stack the cards here, I had a gut feeling that she would make it out just fine, with Sunny being scapegoated as the "manipulator". Don't get me wrong, I believe he deserves at least just as much blame as Holmes. But he stood no chance.

Re:Theranos Founder Elizabeth Holmes Is Denied a Bid for New... by Cupertino95014 on Tuesday November 08, 2022 @12:48PM (#33521899)
I didn't go to Sunny's trial, but it didn't seem to generate much drama.

The idea that he was the manipulator is a "finding of fact" in legal parlance. She can't raise that on appeal. Maybe if the defense tried and the judge refused to allow it, that could be appealed as an "error" and thus appealed. Offhand I don't think that happened in her trial, but I could be wrong (?)

Only a new trial could bring that up. An appellate court could order a new trial; that happens sometimes.

And, of course, in the sentencing hearing, they can try to blame Sunny. I don't think that reduces her sentence to zero, if it works at all.

IANAL, so someone who is: feel free to correct me.

Re:Theranos Founder Elizabeth Holmes Is Denied a Bid for New... by nradov on Tuesday November 08, 2022 @01:12PM (#33522194)
I haven't read the trial transcripts but "manipulator" isn't really a formal term in criminal law. Even if the jury found that Ramesh “Sunny” Balwani encouraged Elizabeth Holmes to commit her crimes, that wouldn't be considered grounds for an acquittal, new trial, or lighter sentence. Adult, mentally competent defendants are legally considered to be responsible for their own actions (except for rare circumstances of coercion or threats which are obviously not a factor here).
Re:Theranos Founder Elizabeth Holmes Is Denied a Bid for New... by Waterluvian on Tuesday November 08, 2022 @01:32PM (#33522487)
She’s a creepy sociopath who will inevitably be photogenic and charismatic to the kinds of people who need protection from her.
Re:Theranos Founder Elizabeth Holmes Is Denied a Bid for New... by bitwize on Tuesday November 08, 2022 @02:44PM (#33523347)
She was hot. That's what it boils down to.

When you consider her (mostly old male) investors, especially that pervert Bill Clinton, they weren't charmed by her stilted personality or her bizarre sanpaku eyes. They were thinking with the little head.

Re:Theranos Founder Elizabeth Holmes Is Denied a Bid for New... by SgtBastard on Tuesday November 08, 2022 @03:58PM (#33524205)
The Clinton's didn't invest in Theranos.

Bill appeared on a discussion panel with her once and Hillary's 2016 Presidential Campaign cancelled hosting an event at Theranos HQ after the leaks on Theranos (lack of) progress became public.

Please don't bring partisan misandry to HN, we're better than this.

Re:Theranos Founder Elizabeth Holmes Is Denied a Bid for New... by nipponese on Tuesday November 08, 2022 @12:52PM (#33521938)
For someone who defrauded Henry Kissinger, she's lucky her family wasn't suicided.