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Re:The First Female Crash Dummy Has Arrived by alistairSH on Monday November 07, 2022 @11:00AM (#33507543)
The average women's clothing size is now 16 or 18 (up from 12 or 14 in 2010). It corresponds to about a 38" waist. Average height is around 5'4", which has been mostly consistent over the last 20 years.

That's shockingly large to me. I knew Americans were obese, but wow.

Re:The First Female Crash Dummy Has Arrived by MichaelCollins on Monday November 07, 2022 @11:25AM (#33507933)
You can't get an idea of what Americans are really like by watching the media. You have to come here, travel around and see for yourself.

Specifically, the media rarely shows fat people. Not the truly fat ones, with the exception of the freakshow genre of TV specifically about extremely fat people. In recent years they've started to show more and more fat people, but not nearly fat enough to give you an accurate impression of average Americans. Just fat enough to give token representation of fatness.

Truth is, the hugely fat people on freakshow TV aren't on freakshow TV because they're freakishly fat. People that fat are common, you can see them yourself any day at walmart. The people on those shows are freaks because they have freakishly little shame and agree to be on TV.

Re:The First Female Crash Dummy Has Arrived by yellowapple on Monday November 07, 2022 @12:58PM (#33509471)
> Truth is, the hugely fat people on freakshow TV aren't on freakshow TV because they're freakishly fat. People that fat are common, you can see them yourself any day at walmart.

Not really. Truth is, the hugely fat people on freakshow TV are pretty rare even in America; if they were at all common then there wouldn't be much of a market for such shows in the US ("you're just gonna show me ordinary people like me? yawn.") You might see one or two hugely fat people at Wal-Mart, but they'll be surrounded by dozens of people who are plump but otherwise mobile, and they'll be surrounded by dozens of people who are fit by European standards.

Re:The First Female Crash Dummy Has Arrived by MichaelCollins on Monday November 07, 2022 @02:01PM (#33510552)
> You might see one or two hugely fat people at Wal-Mart, but they'll be surrounded by dozens of people who are plump but otherwise mobile,

Have you been to Ohio? That ratio is flipped. "Plump" is merely overweight but not obese. In states like Ohio, plump seems athletic because the massively obese are very common. You can easily see several 500lb people a day, fat enough for any TV freakshow.

Re:The First Female Crash Dummy Has Arrived by yellowapple on Monday November 07, 2022 @03:09PM (#33511649)
> Have you been to Ohio?

Yes. Have you? Because no, that ratio is not "flipped". It ain't even flipped in Texas - and everything is bigger in Texas.

> several 500lb people a day

Yes, "several" meaning single digits. The average Wal-Mart has anywhere from double to triple digits of people in it at any one time. All but the tiniest of US towns have quadruple or quintuple digits of people in them.

Thus, even by your own accidental admission, people in the 500lb range are an extreme rarity. This really shouldn't be surprising; the human body can only take in so much nutrients and can only reduce its energy expenditure by so little, so at some point even an entirely sedentary lifestyle with an entirely unhealthy diet will result in a stopping point far short of 500lb. The people you see on TV are that fat because they are outliers, not the norm. That's also - again - what makes them interesting enough to be worth televising to an audience that's already disproportionately obese.

Put differently: if 500lb+ people were the norm, then Wal-Mart would sell clothes that actually fit them instead of them having to be limited to overstretched sweatpants. The fact that Wal-Mart does not should make it patently obvious that they are far too small of a market segment to be worth catering to, even in the very store in which you seem to disproportionately see them.

Re:The First Female Crash Dummy Has Arrived by MichaelCollins on Tuesday November 08, 2022 @12:30PM (#33521662)
> Yes, "several" meaning single digits.

This is my point. If you can see several 500lb people a day going about your everyday errands around town, then the people on the 500lb TV freakshow are not freaks for being 500lbs, they're freaks for agreeing to be on the TV show. And how often are such massive people on TV shows that aren't specifically about 500lb people? Almost never.

If you judged America just by the TV shows, you'd think that 500lb people are very uncommon. But in reality you can see them every single day without even trying.

Re:The First Female Crash Dummy Has Arrived by yellowapple on Tuesday November 08, 2022 @12:52PM (#33521944)
> This is my point. If you can see several 500lb people a day going about your everyday errands around town

Compared to how many people you see total going about your everyday errands? Tens? Hundreds? Thousands? That is my point: you're deliberately ignoring the overwhelmingly vast majority of the people you encounter in favor of a very tiny minority solely for the sake of asserting that tiny minority to be far more common than they actually are.

> And how often are such massive people on TV shows that aren't specifically about 500lb people? Almost never.

Exactly. Shows have to go way out of their way to find 500lb people, because they are exceedingly rare. If they were anywhere near as common as you assert, then they would be far more prevalent on American TV.

In attempting to refute my point you've accidentally proven it, twice in the same comment. I rest my case.

Re:The First Female Crash Dummy Has Arrived by Spivak on Monday November 07, 2022 @05:33PM (#33513502)
I'm offended as a native Ohioan. This is just not true, Ohio's obesity rate is the same as everywhere else. The spread between states is tiny. California is a whole 2% less obese. What about Ohio do you think magically makes people fatter?
Re:The First Female Crash Dummy Has Arrived by alistairSH on Monday November 07, 2022 @02:39PM (#33511198)
I live in the US, but in a "fit" suburb outside DC. I guess that skews my perspective a bit.

DC-proper and Arlington VA usually rank highly on most fitness rankings.

Re:The First Female Crash Dummy Has Arrived by yamtaddle on Monday November 07, 2022 @04:36PM (#33512864)
Even within my middling-fat red-state city, you can see very different size distributions traveling to different parts of the city. Downtown? Skews young and relatively fit. Most 'burbs, and out in our more-diffuse second business district? Average weight of an adult is a solid 50lb higher than downtown, and probably more like 75lb. Poor areas? Everyone seems to be either ruler-thin or very fat, young and old alike, in about equal measure. That one rich people enclave town with its own country club? A glorious place to drive through when the stay-at-home spouses are out for their jogs, let me tell you. You see the same sort of pattern visiting e.g. a coffee shop in that area, so it's not just selection bias of the activity of jogging.

Traveling around to various cities, you see this variation city-to-city, too. Some cities are just fitter (and, in some cases, way "hotter" all around—like you gotta re-calibrate your "10" scale, to use a crude but illustrative example, or you won't see anyone under a back-home "8" your whole visit) than my home city. Others are even fatter (largely in the deep South). Though in all cases you have to take into account that you may only be seeing their equivalent of the "hot" part of town and that may be skewing your overall impression.

Re:The First Female Crash Dummy Has Arrived by adrianN on Monday November 07, 2022 @11:06AM (#33507636)
I wonder how useful averages are since you can be (almost) arbitrarily fat, but die very quickly when you're even a little underweight. I guess the minimum waist size for an adult female is still double-digit inches, but I wouldn't dare guess the maximum waist size.
Re:The First Female Crash Dummy Has Arrived by noodlenotes on Monday November 07, 2022 @11:35AM (#33508107)
In case anyone is curious

> In 2016 in the US, adult women averaged a weight of 170.3 lb. The median adult woman weighed 161.3 lb.

> For men in the United States 18 or older in 2016, average weight was 197.1 lb. Men had a median weight of 189.4 lb.

I guess it makes sense that even the median weight would lead to an overweight BMI (assuming average height), since 74% of the US is overweight or obese.

[1] https://dqydj.com/weight-percentile-calculator-men-women/

Re:The First Female Crash Dummy Has Arrived by mikepurvis on Monday November 07, 2022 @12:59PM (#33509491)
Admittedly I haven't spent a lot of time thinking about this or attempting to guess the weight of strangers, but this gender breakdown seems a bit odd to me— in my circles and community exposure (west of Toronto), I would have imagined that most guys fell into a 180-220 bucket, and most women into a 120-150 one.

So it's a bit surprising to see that in these official US numbers, men are indeed around that, but women are somewhat above it.

Re:The First Female Crash Dummy Has Arrived by alistairSH on Monday November 07, 2022 @11:13AM (#33507734)
Oh yeah, as noted in parallel comments, averages are terrible for things like designing airplane cockpits, and I imagine crash dummies as well.

Even if there's an unexpected distribution, that's no way around there being a massive number of very obese women to pull the average to 38".

I thought my wife was pretty normal/average-ish at 5'4" and size 6/8, which is a full 10" smaller waist than the web is claiming as the average.

Re:The First Female Crash Dummy Has Arrived by bombcar on Monday November 07, 2022 @11:40AM (#33508211)
Note that a 10" shorter waist is only about 1.5" on a side (diameter of 9 inches vs 12) which is noticeable but not as much as "10 inches" would make you think.
Re:The First Female Crash Dummy Has Arrived by Blahah on Monday November 07, 2022 @01:10PM (#33509670)
That difference is visually absolutely vast - for the same height, in most sizing charts, it's approximating a 50% increase in body mass.
Re:The First Female Crash Dummy Has Arrived by WalterBright on Monday November 07, 2022 @01:17PM (#33509787)
I was at Boeing when the cockpits were redesigned to accommodate women:

1. lower control forces

2. shorter legs

3. shorter bodies (need to see over the dash)

With the lower control forces, Boeing was concerned that men would then overcontrol the aircraft, but as far as I know this hasn't turned out to be a problem.

Women were not strong enough to handle the control forces in WW2 aircraft under emergency conditions. Those airplanes were designed around the limit of a man's strength.

Re:The First Female Crash Dummy Has Arrived by yellowapple on Monday November 07, 2022 @12:51PM (#33509359)
A 38" waist would make someone about a foot or two wide (12.1 inches assuming a perfectly circular waist, but most folks' waists are wider than they're "long") - which is curvy, sure, but not severely so. Average waist size for European women is around 30", for reference - so only a couple inches less wide.

Then again, I'm an American male (who wears size 44 pants), so needless to say my perspective might be skewed.

Re:The First Female Crash Dummy Has Arrived by snovv_crash on Monday November 07, 2022 @01:45PM (#33510262)
A simple quadratic model would suggest a 60% weight increase of the 38" over the 30". That's enormous.
Re:The First Female Crash Dummy Has Arrived by yellowapple on Monday November 07, 2022 @03:11PM (#33511684)
A "simple quadratic model" is about as appropriate for extrapolating human weight from human dimensions as a microwave is appropriate for cooking steak.
Re:The First Female Crash Dummy Has Arrived by snovv_crash on Tuesday November 08, 2022 @01:40AM (#33516510)
Definitely not optimal but it gets the job done?
Re:The First Female Crash Dummy Has Arrived by yellowapple on Tuesday November 08, 2022 @06:43PM (#33525798)
Not really; indeed, my point is that body metrics are surprisingly difficult to model given the wide variances.

You could probably get closer to an accurate model by identifying the fixed weight of an adult's skin/bones/organs. Going from critically emaciated to fit would mostly entail adding muscle, which is denser than fat.

From there, the proportion of added muscle v. added fat when increasing waist circumference would be the deciding factor in accurately estimating weight; that proportion is highly dependent on the individual and one's level of daily activity.

Re:The First Female Crash Dummy Has Arrived by porknubbins on Monday November 07, 2022 @10:13PM (#33515508)
From the bodybuilding literature I’ve seen weight and body part circumference changes are a little more linear than what you’re suggesting. Though there may be some people who you can model as spheres.
Re:The First Female Crash Dummy Has Arrived by snovv_crash on Tuesday November 08, 2022 @10:08AM (#33519784)
Spheres would be cubic, we're just talking about cylinders here. And the difference between the 30" and 38" waist will be mostly by better approximating a cylinder at the waistline, the underlying skeletal structure isn't changing much.
Re:The First Female Crash Dummy Has Arrived by alistairSH on Monday November 07, 2022 @02:43PM (#33511260)
A 38" waist is massive on most bodies.

At my current 150lbs and 5'7", I have a <30" waist. When I was 180lbs (got fat in college) it was near 38". That 30lb difference took me from athletic to obese. Granted, I'm male, but I'd think that on a 5'4" women, that 38" waist was visibly even larger.