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Re:Programmers Should Plan for Lower Pay by stephc_int13 on Saturday November 05, 2022 @04:39PM (#33485432)
>We don't pay people based on how hard they work.

This.

Something being difficult to achieve does not make it valuable.

In practice, this is often the opposite. The most difficult jobs are also the less productive/less well paid.

The ability to write code is the closest thing we ever had to magic. There are many levels of mastery, but it is undeniably powerful.

The strange thing is that not everyone seems to enjoy acquiring the skills needed for programming.

Re:Programmers Should Plan for Lower Pay by godelski on Saturday November 05, 2022 @05:00PM (#33485683)
> Something being difficult to achieve does not make it valuable.

And value to what? As an ex-physicist I can confidently say that doing that was substantially harder than the ML I do now. But I also think that what I did provided more value to society as a whole. Just my opinion though. But it doesn't pay well (<$100k/yr) and I'm not surprised I saw a mass exodus of people trying to get more money with their math skills (mostly in DS and CS). If pay was correlated strongly to difficulty mathematicians and physicists would be paid much more than Hollywood actors. But for some reason these conversations always revolve around the (barely a) millionaire class and never include the billionaire class. It feels surreal in that it looks like we're fighting for crumbs and arguing who deserves it more.

Re:Programmers Should Plan for Lower Pay by stephc_int13 on Saturday November 05, 2022 @05:18PM (#33485883)
In this context I was talking about something being valuable from an economic standpoint.

That is the only way I know to put a price on something, and this is clearly not a reliable process (see all the scams) but is there anything better?

Re:Programmers Should Plan for Lower Pay by threatofrain on Saturday November 05, 2022 @06:05PM (#33486371)
There’s a difference between valuable to the market and valuable for society. For all we know ecological research will become an existential issue but that doesn’t mean consumers or businesses give a damn. Meanwhile advertising is worth trillions.
Re:Programmers Should Plan for Lower Pay by nopenopenopeno on Saturday November 05, 2022 @07:45PM (#33487162)
Be careful. You’re approaching communist thought crime.

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Use_value

Re:Programmers Should Plan for Lower Pay by Viliam1234 on Sunday November 06, 2022 @09:20AM (#33492910)
Both concepts have their problems; it does not have to be an either-or choice.

The problem with market value is that it downplays the needs of the poor, and is sensitive to all kinds of regulation (intuitively, if regulation makes the same thing more expensive, it doesn't make it more valuable).

The problem with use value, as defined by Marx, is that it ignores the differences between individuals, and technically the needs of individuals at all. It simply means "what the one who controls the society considers valuable". (If you think this is a strawman, just read the Wikipedia article carefully.) Of course, it is assumed that the one who controls the society is omniscient and can determine the value correctly, but that's just answering the question by passing the buck to a hypothetical omniscient entity. (And if you look at actual communist societies, it turns out, perhaps surprisingly to many, that the ones who control them are neither omniscient nor benevolent.)

What seems to work best, so far, is a hybrid system where:

* the value of million little things (often not useful per se, but as a raw material for something else) is determined by the market;

* some form of social security ensures that anyone's needs have a non-zero weight;

* the "socially useful but not market profitable" projects are paid for by taxes and charities.

In other words, the "use value" can be implemented on top of "market value" by financing things by taxes and charities. In the opposite direction, the "market value" can also be implemented on top of "use value" by trading the government-assigned things on black market; the only problem is that this is typically considered illegal. The fact that both things occur naturally in different kinds of societies suggests that both are necessary. (And the proposal of "free market with unconditional basic income" is how they could exist side by side without having to implement one of them as a hack on top of the other. The last component you need is some kind of Kickstarter.)

Re:Programmers Should Plan for Lower Pay by boppo1 on Monday November 07, 2022 @09:17PM (#33515203)
Nah, the difference between value to the market and society is because we broke price discovery by holding rates low for decades. The current paradigm is literally central planning, which, last I checked, is closer to communism than capitalism. If the central feature of capitalism is the invisible hand we shattered the wrist.
Re:Programmers Should Plan for Lower Pay by jrm4 on Saturday November 05, 2022 @05:30PM (#33486032)
There's no shortage of people who enjoy the acquiring the skills to write code? I'd say it's more the tension of "finding ways to get paid for it in this ever churning environment."
Re:Programmers Should Plan for Lower Pay by bspammer on Saturday November 05, 2022 @08:10PM (#33487312)
> There's no shortage of people who enjoy the acquiring the skills to write code?

There certainly is a shortage, or salaries would be lower. Anecdotally, at least 90% of the people I talk to say something along the lines of “ooh I could never do that” when they learn what I do for a living. Most people seem scared of coding, and I’m not entirely sure why.

Re:Programmers Should Plan for Lower Pay by randomdata on Saturday November 05, 2022 @11:01PM (#33488415)
> There certainly is a shortage, or salaries would be lower.

Sounds backwards. A shortage is a situation where price is unable to rise. If there is a shortage, salaries should be higher than they are.

Price gouging laws are a good example of where shortages can occur. We experienced a shortage of toilet paper at the beginning of the pandemic because the law (in many jurisdictions) prevented vendors from charging the fair market value. If vendors were legally able to sell them for $1,000 a roll, the market would have been easily satisfied as the average person unable to pay $1,000 a roll would have bowed out of the market, leaving just the right amount for those who still were willing to pay up. Instead, because of the law toilet paper remained as affordable as it ever was, so it became a race to see who could get it first instead of letting a higher price scare some people away.

Within the scope of labor, healthcare can be prone to shortages as governments have been known to impose price ceilings on practitioners to try and make healthcare more accessible to all, so that the rich don't buy up all the doctors' time with a better offer, leaving no service available to the poor. This is quite uncommon generally, though, and not something I've ever seen within the software industry. We're quite happy to let Google outbid Mom and Pop's Used Book Emporium for developers.

Re:Programmers Should Plan for Lower Pay by ZephyrBlu on Sunday November 06, 2022 @01:29AM (#33489809)
From what I have seen, most people simply do not like coding. It's a very difficult mode of work for most people and I'm not surprised.

It's very time consuming, requires you to think in logic and the work is relatively solitary. It's a nightmare job for a lot of people.

Re:Programmers Should Plan for Lower Pay by JamesianP on Saturday November 05, 2022 @07:11PM (#33486940)
But if you look at it with all else being equal, difficulty certainly helps increase pay far more often than not. Difficulty level constrains the supply side of the equation. though there are additional factors on both sides.