News for hackers. Stuff that matters.
Re:Major crypto trading firm Alameda Research might be insol... by dcolkitt on Friday November 04, 2022 @10:37AM (#33467429)
As someone in the industry, it's almost certainly not.

First very simple point, to become insolvent you have to actually take a loss somewhere. They may have a lot of junk tokens on their balance sheet, and these tokens may be overmarked, but Alameda's cost basis (most of them were from seed rounds) is still way below their current value.

With Three Arrows it was very obvious where the loss was from, they were hyper-bullish and doubling down on BTC all the way from $69,000 to $18,000 using leverage. By contrast Alameda is notorious for being dollar maxis, constantly taking money off the table, and very rarely having any sort of long-term major beta exposure. (A big reason they have a reputation as mercenaries in the space.)

The second point is that the bulk of their liabilities are in the same tokens on their balance sheet. This is particularly true for the FTT token, almost certainly the FTT on their balance sheet is simply a loan from FTX (which is essentially the same org) to Alameda to make a market on FTT on FTX. Regardless if FTT collapses, it wouldn't matter cause insolvency both the asset and liability side of the balance sheet would go down.

Most likely this is true for much of the rest of their liabilities. Crypto trading firms like Alameda make a huge proportion of their revenue from being "paid market makers" for specific token projects. It's very hard for new tokens to bootstrap liquidity. So the typical arrangement is a token project will "lend" Alameda something like 5% of the supply, which Alameda will use to be a market maker in that token at all of the major venues. Most of the liabilities on their balance sheet are probably these token deals, rather than loans made in hard currency.

Re:Major crypto trading firm Alameda Research might be insol... by tom-thistime on Friday November 04, 2022 @10:51AM (#33467682)
On 2022 11/4 7:50 am Pacific, this was the top-ranked comment on this article on HN.
Re:Major crypto trading firm Alameda Research might be insol... by dekervin on Friday November 04, 2022 @10:57AM (#33467794)
Why do you timestamp it ?
Re:Major crypto trading firm Alameda Research might be insol... by tom-thistime on Friday November 04, 2022 @11:27AM (#33468318)
I'm attempting to preserve a record of when the views expressed in the comment seemed popular. Opinions can change over time.
Re:Major crypto trading firm Alameda Research might be insol... by forgotmypw17 on Friday November 04, 2022 @11:06AM (#33467967)
I think it is because the comment ranking changes over time, and there is no way (without access to the raw data) to see what comment was ranked where at a given time.
Re:Major crypto trading firm Alameda Research might be insol... by tough on Friday November 04, 2022 @11:05AM (#33467952)
Fear of manual moderation bringing it down?
Re:Major crypto trading firm Alameda Research might be insol... by jjulius on Thursday November 10, 2022 @09:57PM (#33556822)
Because it only took ~24 hours for this comment...

>As someone in the industry, it's almost certainly not.

... to be proven wrong.

Re:Major crypto trading firm Alameda Research might be insol... by tom-thistime on Friday November 11, 2022 @07:43AM (#33560117)
Right. And that felt obvious at the time ... but if you don't timestamp it, who knows (later on) whether it really was obvious, or hindsight?

I also thought that question (Hindsight or Not?) might be interesting to more people than just me.

Re:Major crypto trading firm Alameda Research might be insol... by darth_aardvark on Tuesday November 15, 2022 @12:52PM (#33612583)
I fucking love this.
Re:Major crypto trading firm Alameda Research might be insol... by shorthistory on Friday November 04, 2022 @10:59AM (#33467839)
FTT 24h volume is ~$100M according to coinmarketcap.com

Alameda hold $5.8B FTT according to the article.

Any market makers able to advise how much is normally held relative to daily volume/mean transaction size?

Re:Major crypto trading firm Alameda Research might be insol... by JumpCrisscross on Friday November 04, 2022 @11:49AM (#33468656)
This looks more like a dealer book than a classic MM. If they’re long $5.8bn and short $5.79bn, their net position is fine. That said, they’d be carrying major counterparty risk.
Re:Major crypto trading firm Alameda Research might be insol... by shorthistory on Friday November 04, 2022 @11:53AM (#33468721)
1. They are understood to be classic MM [source?]

2. Balance sheet shows they are not classic MM

3. Counterparty is FTX

4. ...

Re:Major crypto trading firm Alameda Research might be insol... by wyxuan on Friday November 04, 2022 @11:04AM (#33467930)
There are FTT denominated loan(s), to MIM for instance, but I’m not sure there are that many others willing to accept FTT given the thin liquidity
Re:Major crypto trading firm Alameda Research might be insol... by paulusthe on Friday November 04, 2022 @11:04AM (#33467939)
Sure, but at some point real dollars enter the financial equation, backed by these coins, none of which are probably priced correctly to serve as collateral.

The ftt coin is shady as hell though. A 40% trading rebate for holding $1m is insane; that's nothing. And it's not open to anybody touching the US - a blatant attempt to prevent US regulations, which would catch this stuff.

It's very weird for exchange owners to get rich overnight. That doesn't happen in real markets, and it seems to only happen in crypto when the exchange is using customer deposits as leverage (Celsius) or trading on their own account, which means against their customers (binance, probably ftx)

Re:Major crypto trading firm Alameda Research might be insol... by dcist on Friday November 04, 2022 @12:35PM (#33469507)
The trading fees for crypto exchanges are also insane, which enriches the exchange operators.
Re:Major crypto trading firm Alameda Research might be insol... by from on Friday November 04, 2022 @07:22PM (#33475514)
If you think someone's leaving money on the table with high fees you should start your own exchange. Of course before you even got off the ground you'd have to register as a MSB, draft a very extensive compliance plan given the "high risk" nature of your industry, find a banking partner who will even consider accepting you and hopefully won't kick you out after you get too big (you may have to buy a credit union if this step doesn't work out), get a money transmitter license in every state except Montana (which by the way all require a substantial bond, application fees, and delays), find former regulators who are now $1500/hr lawyers who still have some influence at NY DFS in order to get approved in New York, get approved for ACH, spend at least $50k a month on Chainlysis and OFAC screening software in order to placate regulators, and of course you actually have to write the exchange backend too. If you want to offer leverage (you will in order to be competitive with other exchanges) you need to have a pretty sophisticated risk management system because liquidations in crypto don't work like they do anywhere else. And you have to pay a browser fingerprinting vendor $20k/mo too because your halfwit customers will get phished and cause you bad publicity if you don't stop it. You'll also need Onfido or some other identity verification company in order to satisfy 31 CFR § 1020.220. But yes, once it's all set up it's a practically license to print money.
Re:Major crypto trading firm Alameda Research might be insol... by dcolkitt on Friday November 04, 2022 @01:52PM (#33470995)
Why would it be shady? Traditional exchanges like the CME have "seats" that entitle holders to discounts and are sold at hefty prices. FTT is simply a tokenized version of an exchange membership. It makes perfect sense, and is really no different than a Costco membership where paying up front allows you to buy in bulk at a discount.
Re:Major crypto trading firm Alameda Research might be insol... by kennend3 on Friday November 04, 2022 @11:13AM (#33468079)
> First very simple point, to become insolvent you have to actually take a loss somewhere.

This has absolutely NOTHING to do with being insolvent.

"Insolvency

In accounting, insolvency is the state of being unable to pay the debts, by a person or company, at maturity; those in a state of insolvency are said to be insolvent. There are two forms: cash-flow insolvency and balance-sheet insolvency. "

Insolvency deals with the inability to repay your debts (insufficient cash flow is the most common).

Re:Major crypto trading firm Alameda Research might be insol... by deetsb on Friday November 04, 2022 @11:34AM (#33468431)
I'd argue balance sheet insolvency is really the most colloquial definition insolvency. You can always sell assets (at a haircut of course) to evade cash flow insolvency (arguably that's closer to illiquidity really), but you can't do anything to get out of balance sheet insolvency except restructure your liabilities.

Alameda being in balance sheet insolvency would depend on their assets taking enough of a hit to wipe out the equity buffer.

To Doug's point the junk tokens are likely at book value on their balance sheet

Re:Major crypto trading firm Alameda Research might be insol... by JumpCrisscross on Friday November 04, 2022 @11:46AM (#33468605)
> can always sell assets (at a haircut of course) to evade cash flow insolvency (arguably that's closer to illiquidity really)

For financial institutions, particularly those with short-term liabilities, illiquidity is insolvency. The initial liquidity depresses prices which marks down the balance sheet.

Re:Major crypto trading firm Alameda Research might be insol... by DebtDeflation on Friday November 04, 2022 @12:46PM (#33469720)
>You can always sell assets (at a haircut of course) to evade cash flow insolvency

If the assets in question are marketable securities (stocks and bonds), traded commodities, or real estate, then that's generally true. If the asset is some shitcoin for which no real market exists, not so much.

Re:Major crypto trading firm Alameda Research might be insol... by fddhjjj on Saturday November 05, 2022 @02:59PM (#33484503)
> To Doug's point the junk tokens are likely at book value on their balance sheet

The linked article in turn links to coin desk which writes

>> Also, token values may be low. In a footnote, Alameda says “locked tokens conservatively treated at 50% of fair value marked to FTX/USD order book.”

That suggests to me the unlocked coins are on the balance sheet at market value and the locked at a 50% haircut.

Re:Major crypto trading firm Alameda Research might be insol... by dchftcs on Friday November 04, 2022 @11:39AM (#33468496)
Given the assumption that their balance sheet is liquid enough or they have the cash flow to pay the debts, it's reasonable to say that they have take losses as a trading firm to be potentially insolvent.

In fact you could turn your argument around to critize the article too, as they are based on the assumption that some of the assets should marked to zero, rather than examining empirically whether those assets could be either collateral or be used to pay the debt.

Re:Major crypto trading firm Alameda Research might be insol... by toyg on Friday November 04, 2022 @11:27AM (#33468313)
- internet person says he works in the crypto space

- is actually financially illiterate

Checks out, sadly.

Re:Major crypto trading firm Alameda Research might be insol... by shorthistory on Friday November 04, 2022 @11:34AM (#33468425)
Why would a market maker hold so much of an asset.

Market makers do not typically hold $B of anything.

Alameda does not need to borrow so much FTT to make markets.

Re:Major crypto trading firm Alameda Research might be insol... by amluto on Friday November 04, 2022 @01:14PM (#33470256)
In conventional markets, market makers need the ability to sell that which they make a market in. This can be done by actually owning the asset, by having a credit relationship enabling sales without owning the asset, by naked shorting, etc.

If you can’t naked short, and if sales settle effectively immediately (cryptocurrency confirmation may well be slow, but you can’t usefully sell something and buy it back using the sale proceeds without confirming or at least generating and signing the transactions), then you need access to the actual token so you can sell it.

In contrast, one can make a market in EUR/USD without actually sitting on a big pile of EUR and USD. In fact, market makers are likely to target an average position of zero in every currency except their home currency unless they are also trying to make some sort of long term bet. Similarly, I doubt you’ll find that most market makers in, say, grain futures have warehouses full of grain. (Grain wants to be eaten, not hoarded for the life of a business. Also, making commodity markets is an entirely different business than growing, storing, transporting, and using commodities.)

(This is not trading or market advice, obviously.)

Re:Major crypto trading firm Alameda Research might be insol... by dcolkitt on Friday November 04, 2022 @01:45PM (#33470840)
I graduated with a degree in finance from Wharton, worked as a quant at Citadel Securities, and have been a high-frequency trader for more than a decade. But I'm more than sure that your credentials at finance or trading are more qualified. :)
Re:Major crypto trading firm Alameda Research might be insol... by testrun on Sunday November 06, 2022 @06:02PM (#33498490)
You should ask the money back from Wharton. One of the respondents below explains what insolvency means (correction: pretty much all of the comments below).
Re:Major crypto trading firm Alameda Research might be insol... by adamsmith143 on Tuesday November 08, 2022 @03:14PM (#33523673)
Lmao. So did all the guys at Lehman, Bear Stearns and LTCM.
Re:Major crypto trading firm Alameda Research might be insol... by senttoschool on Wednesday November 09, 2022 @12:21AM (#33527767)
Ouch. Care to comment now?
Re:Major crypto trading firm Alameda Research might be insol... by darth_aardvark on Tuesday November 15, 2022 @12:50PM (#33612553)
So...
Re:Major crypto trading firm Alameda Research might be insol... by the_mitsuhiko on Friday November 04, 2022 @01:17PM (#33470304)
More importantly in some jurisdictions (eg: Germany) insolvency is not just a fun little accounting definition but comes with criminal charges if a company doesn't immediately file for insolvency.
Re:Major crypto trading firm Alameda Research might be insol... by dcolkitt on Friday November 04, 2022 @01:39PM (#33470735)
Alice is a trading firm. Alice borrows $1 billion, Alice then uses $1 billion to go out and buy $1 billion of assets. To become insolvent, the value of Alice's assets has to fall below the value of her liabilities. Otherwise, Alice can simply liquidate her assets to repay her debts.

The only way this can happen is if the value of Alice's assets falls below the cost basis in which she purchased those assets (plus some relatively minor short-term secured interested rate). For a trading firm engaged in mark-to-market accounting that condition represents a loss in the income statement. This isn't strange voodoo, this is just simple accounting identities.

Re:Major crypto trading firm Alameda Research might be insol... by gamblor956 on Friday November 04, 2022 @01:48PM (#33470909)
To put it bluntly: Alice becomes legally and technically insolvent if the market value of the acquired assets falls below $1 billion: the value of the assets is no longer sufficient to pay off the $1 billion loan.
Re:Major crypto trading firm Alameda Research might be insol... by dcolkitt on Friday November 04, 2022 @01:58PM (#33471110)
So you agree with me? For Alice to become insolvent the price of her assets has to fall below her cost basis.

Alameda's cost basis on Solana is the seed round at approximately ten cents, and it's currently trading at $30. Similar story for all the Solana protocol tokens. I don't know what Alameda's cost basis is on FTT (if it's even holding a significant amount financed with hard currency), but we can almost certainly say it's close to the seed round price because the founder of Alameda is literally the founder of FTX.

To make this story make sense Alameda at one point must have bought some asset that has fallen significantly from its cost basis. What exactly is this supposed asset? Because Alameda certainly isn't known for going out and taken levered long exposure on BTC, ETH or other post-seed liquid tokens.

Re:Major crypto trading firm Alameda Research might be insol... by shorthistory on Friday November 04, 2022 @02:44PM (#33471730)
Still doesn't explain why they are holding $5.8B FTT
Re:Major crypto trading firm Alameda Research might be insol... by gamblor956 on Friday November 04, 2022 @03:04PM (#33472041)
No, I don't agree with you.

Solana is only worth $33 right now at the current spot rate, but at the volume that would need to be liquidated to pay off Alameda's debts, the price would crash to pennies because the amount would represent over half of the daily trading volume in Solana for the past month. (For comparison, in the stock market, selling the equivalent a single-digit % of the daily volume of a stock can tank the stock.)

Similarly, Alameda owns 80% of FTT, which has a 24h trading volume of less than 20% of Alameda's debts, and fewer than 250 active daily traders. It would be literally worthless if Alameda tried to liquidate enough to pay off its debts. And as the linked blog points out, FTT is just a shitcoin exchanged between two related entities on their accounting books, meaning that at least $5.8 billion of the value of FTT, i.e., 80% of the putative value, is purely made-up.

OTOH, as the Voyager debt was collateralized entirely with shitcoins, it's possible that the other $7+ billion in Alameda debt was also collateralized in shitcoins. If that's the case, than Alameda should be solvent because it appears they actually have about $100m in cash assets. But if not, they are legally insolvent.

Re:Major crypto trading firm Alameda Research might be insol... by NotYourLawyer on Friday November 04, 2022 @03:19PM (#33472280)
Cost basis has nothing to do with insolvency. If a company is mismanaged badly enough, it can easily become insolvent even if its investments are doing fine.
Re:Major crypto trading firm Alameda Research might be insol... by WastingMyTime89 on Friday November 04, 2022 @08:58PM (#33476460)
>> First very simple point, to become insolvent you have to actually take a loss somewhere.

> This has absolutely NOTHING to do with being insolvent.

This has everything to do with being insolvent.

If you don’t lose money somewhere - interests costing more than what you win being a loss for exemple - you should be able to pay back what you owe in the end.

You could be temporary insolvent because you have issues with payment delays and are strapped for cash but there are ways to deal with that especially at Alameda size.

Re:Major crypto trading firm Alameda Research might be insol... by surewhatever1 on Friday November 04, 2022 @11:29AM (#33468341)
> As someone in the industry, ...

It's so delightful that the finance people are coming out all salty!

The number is going down. If you organize your life around this number going up, and it goes down, everyone is going to laugh.

You chose this life!

There is sometimes some meaning in finance somewhere. Like some VCs can get some meaning from, a biotech investment makes a great drug that helps people.

But what you chose, there is none. There will be many stages of grief, they do not happen in order or one at a time.

> First very simple point, to become insolvent you have to actually take a loss somewhere.

C'mon dude. Listen to yourself. It's over. This isn't peak cringe but it's getting there.

Re:Major crypto trading firm Alameda Research might be insol... by JumpCrisscross on Friday November 04, 2022 @11:42AM (#33468544)
> the bulk of their liabilities are in the same tokens on their balance sheet

Do we have evidence of this?

The article says $292mm are FTT-denominated, with the rest unknown. Absent further information, it’s fair to assume some of that is dollar denominated. With less than 2% cash to cover liabilities, even a small amount of normal borrowing could render Alameda insolvent.

Moreover, if the losses are entirely passed through, whose are they? That’s over $7bn of losses sitting on someone’s balance sheets. Are they distributed? Is it FTX’s?

Re:Major crypto trading firm Alameda Research might be insol... by janmo on Friday November 04, 2022 @01:05PM (#33470105)
Alameda has taken loans from Voyager and BlockFi, those are in hard currencies, USD or bluechip crypto such as BTC/ETH.

From Voyager's bankruptcy filing we know Alameda owes them $650m in USD, and hasn't repaid them yet, instead SBF is trying to push forward a shady deal that would allow FTX to take over Voyager's asset.

Deal to which state regulators have filed and objection in bankruptcy court by the way.

Re:Major crypto trading firm Alameda Research might be insol... by janmo on Friday November 04, 2022 @12:43PM (#33469641)
We know that on Jun 30th Alameda had $134m in liquid assets, at the same time it came out that they owe the bankrupt Voyager Digital around $650m USD.

On Jul 8th Alameda research tweeted: "happy to return the Voyager loan and get our collateral back whenever works for voyager".

Simple question here, how do they return $650m USD, if they only have $134m in liquid assets (cash) and the rest is in illiquid tokens such as FTT, MAPS and other tokens with fancy names and inflated marketcaps?

Re:Major crypto trading firm Alameda Research might be insol... by janmo on Friday November 04, 2022 @12:53PM (#33469888)
"Most of the liabilities on their balance sheet are probably these token deals, rather than loans made in hard currency."

No... We know that they owe $650m USD to Voyager Digital and they haven't repaid it yet, instead after failing to bail out Voyager, SBF is trying to acquire its assets with a VERY shady scheme through FTX.

We also know that SBF has spent a lot of effort to bail out BlockFi, and I am confident they are one of Alameda's biggest creditor, we know that BlockFi only lends stables, BTC, ETH and a few other bluechip coins, no FTT, MAPS etc...

So everything is indicating that Alameda's liabilities are in USD/BTC/ETH, while their assets are FTT, MAPS, a few SOL and other low liquidity "shitcoins".

Seems like what Alameda was doing is to take out loans to pump some shitcoins and mainly its own (FTT).

Re:Major crypto trading firm Alameda Research might be insol... by dcolkitt on Friday November 04, 2022 @01:50PM (#33470954)
No. The Voyager loan was denominated in crypto and at current prices represents only $200 million of liabilities (assuming they haven't already repaid).

https://cointelegraph.com/news/alameda-research-happy-to-ret...

Re:Major crypto trading firm Alameda Research might be insol... by stephc_int13 on Friday November 04, 2022 @01:21PM (#33470366)
"Market Maker"

How is that even legal?

Re:Major crypto trading firm Alameda Research might be insol... by drexlspivey on Friday November 04, 2022 @01:35PM (#33470648)
Why would it be illegal .. ?
Re:Major crypto trading firm Alameda Research might be insol... by renewiltord on Friday November 04, 2022 @02:05PM (#33471241)
Their job is to make sure that when you go to a market to buy or sell, there's some trade available for you to take. No reason for illegality.
Re:Major crypto trading firm Alameda Research might be insol... by timmaxw on Friday November 04, 2022 @02:29PM (#33471536)
> First very simple point, to become insolvent you have to actually take a loss somewhere. They may have a lot of junk tokens on their balance sheet, and these tokens may be overmarked, but Alameda's cost basis (most of them were from seed rounds) is still way below their current value.

Hypothetical scenario: Alice invests $100M in seed rounds for a bunch of tokens. The token values go way up, and the holdings are nominally worth $14B. Alice borrows $7B in real dollars. Alice loses those real dollars on other bets. The nominal value of the tokens is still $14B, but Alice can't actually liquidate them for $7B in real dollars. So Alice is functionally unable to pay back the loans.

So Alice took a loss somewhere (on the other bets) and is effectively insolvent, but you can't assess that just by looking at the cost basis of the tokens that Alice still holds.

(I don't know if this actually describes Alameda; it's entirely possible that Alameda's loans are token-denominated as you're saying, in which case Alameda would be solvent. I'm just pointing out that it's more complicated than just looking at the cost basis.)

Re:Major crypto trading firm Alameda Research might be insol... by xerxesaa on Wednesday November 09, 2022 @02:26AM (#33528412)
Given the recent events of the last 24 hours, what's your updated view on this?
Re:Major crypto trading firm Alameda Research might be insol... by harambae on Saturday November 12, 2022 @07:35AM (#33572452)
He was completely wrong on the situation, how many more views of his do you want? (To the credit of HN, many people thought he was wrong at the time too)

https://www.coindesk.com/business/2022/11/10/sam-bankman-fri...

Re:Major crypto trading firm Alameda Research might be insol... by mi_lk on Wednesday November 09, 2022 @05:42AM (#33529644)
with the benefit of hindsight, please tell me you wrote this just to front running the rest of us and that you don't believe any of these words
Re:Major crypto trading firm Alameda Research might be insol... by jjulius on Thursday November 10, 2022 @10:26PM (#33556988)
>As someone in the industry, it's almost certainly not.

Oof, this aged terribly. Didn't even take 24 hours.