News for hackers. Stuff that matters.
Re:As Last Module Docks, China Completes Its Space Station by nimbius on Tuesday November 01, 2022 @08:52PM (#33430055)
So for those wondering why no US collaboration, you can blame republican octogenarian Frank Wolf for introducting the Wolf amendment prohibiting any and all NASA collaboration with china that isnt expressly sanctioned by the rest of the geriatrics in congress. he even managed to fuck up the 2013 Kepler Science Conference which resulted in a mass boycott after two chinese scientists were banned.

We had every opportunity to collaborate with chinese scientists aboard the ISS before this crap. The man is a traitor to science.

Re:As Last Module Docks, China Completes Its Space Station by chrononaut on Tuesday November 01, 2022 @11:53PM (#33431257)
> that isnt expressly sanctioned by the rest of the geriatrics in congress

Interestingly, you inadvertently (?) demonstrated OPs comment by using the opposing definition from GP.

Re:As Last Module Docks, China Completes Its Space Station by skrebbel on Wednesday November 02, 2022 @02:20AM (#33431963)
I bet it was on purpose and I love it.
Re:As Last Module Docks, China Completes Its Space Station by jonnybgood on Wednesday November 02, 2022 @12:14AM (#33431362)
It's a little more nuanced than being a traitor to science given China's strategy in regards to acquisition of scientific research and technology. China doesn't collaborate, it just takes until it reaches scientific and technological parity. Once parity is reached, China cuts collaboration agreements and keeps further advancements within China.
Re:As Last Module Docks, China Completes Its Space Station by deltasevennine on Wednesday November 02, 2022 @12:36AM (#33431488)
Unlikely. This is more economic rivalry then actual worry that China is going to suddenly flip.
Re:As Last Module Docks, China Completes Its Space Station by FooBarWidget on Wednesday November 02, 2022 @01:58AM (#33431860)
> Once parity is reached, China cuts collaboration agreements and keeps further advancements within China

I'd like to see sources backing up this claim. Huawei for example has 5G patents and research centers outside China. Hualong-1 nuclear plants are exported abroad.

Seeing that China is big on business and making money, it makes no sense to keep technology for yourself. There's so much money to be made by selling them!

Re:As Last Module Docks, China Completes Its Space Station by hoseja on Wednesday November 02, 2022 @03:30AM (#33432340)
1. backdoored surveillance

2. belt and road

Re:As Last Module Docks, China Completes Its Space Station by simiones on Wednesday November 02, 2022 @06:22AM (#33433608)
As odious as that technology is, as far as I know China is a major supplier of surveillance technology to the world's authoritarian governments.

Belt and Road is an international infrastructure investment (and direct construction) project, not sure how its related to technology. It's also no different from all other nations' international aid programs, in that it both helps the receiving nation and makes them indebted to the originator.

Re:As Last Module Docks, China Completes Its Space Station by codedokode on Wednesday November 02, 2022 @10:22AM (#33436256)
And western equipment is totally not backdoored, and has open source hardware and firmware so that anyone can verify it?
Re:As Last Module Docks, China Completes Its Space Station by ChemSpider on Wednesday November 02, 2022 @07:07AM (#33433919)
Just one of many examples: The WIV BSL-4 lab in Wuhan was built as a French-Chinese cooperation (modeled after a similar lab in Lyon, France) with the explicit goal to do joint experiments. But once it was built, the French were kicked out.
Re:As Last Module Docks, China Completes Its Space Station by bigcat12345678 on Wednesday November 02, 2022 @08:12AM (#33434444)
Sources?
Re:As Last Module Docks, China Completes Its Space Station by ChemSpider on Thursday November 03, 2022 @02:48PM (#33455551)
Many, e. g. https://www.mediapart.fr/en/journal/france/310520/strange-sa...

FRANCE INVESTIGATION The strange saga of how France helped build Wuhan's top-security virus lab MAY 31, 2020 BY KARL LASKE AND JACQUES MASSEY The maximum-level biosafety laboratory at the Wuhan Institute of Virology was the first of its kind to be built in China, and has been the centre of huge speculation since the start of the Covid-19 pandemic which originated in that city. The laboratory, which is equipped to handle Class 4 pathogens (P4) including dangerous viruses such as Ebola, was built with the help of French experts and under the guidance of French billionaire businessman Alain Mérieux, despite strong objections by health and defence officials in Paris. Since the laboratory's inauguration by prime minister Bernard Cazeneuve in 2017, however, France has had no supervisory role in the running of the facility and planned cooperation between French researchers and the laboratory has come to a grinding halt.

Re:As Last Module Docks, China Completes Its Space Station by bigcat12345678 on Saturday November 05, 2022 @01:46PM (#33483742)
> French experts and researchers have no say in the running of the top-level biosafety laboratory at the Wuhan Institute of Virology in China despite the fact that France helped build the facility and that Paris and Beijing signed an agreement on future cooperation and collaboration, a Mediapart investigation can reveal.

> have no say in the running of the top-level biosafety laboratory > Beijing signed an agreement on future cooperation and collaboration

These are far from what was claimed by the OP

Re:As Last Module Docks, China Completes Its Space Station by natch on Wednesday November 02, 2022 @10:12AM (#33436098)
It seems to me research centers outside of China are used to recruit willing experts from other companies whose knowledge of proprietary information can then be unethically harvested and absorbed by Huawei.
Re:As Last Module Docks, China Completes Its Space Station by FooBarWidget on Wednesday November 02, 2022 @02:13PM (#33440432)
That sounds like... How other research centers also work? If you're not hiring someone for their knowledge and experience on a topic, then what are you hiring that person for?

And when these people leave, they take their experience at Huawei with them. Now some other company benefits from Huawei's experience.

People hire me for my 10 years of DevOps experience so that I can help them implement practices. They don't hire me to reinvent DevOps from first principles without using any of my previous experience.

Just what part of hiring people for their experience is "unethical harvesting"? If there's evidence of people being specifically hired to diverge trade secrets of a previous employer, in violation of NDAs, then you'd actually have a case.

Re:As Last Module Docks, China Completes Its Space Station by adrian_b on Wednesday November 02, 2022 @02:10AM (#33431911)
It would be interesting to see some concrete examples of what is claimed in "Once parity is reached, China cuts collaboration agreements and keeps further advancements within China."

Whenever I search recent research articles about any topic, I see a very large number that are published by China, and which are freely available.

The quality of the Chinese research is quite uneven, there are many papers that are just garbage, but there are also many which are surprisingly creative and original, exploring promising alternatives to those that had already been studied by Western research.

I frequently see statements from naive Americans that all that the Chinese do is based on copying, but unfortunately for USA, that was true only in the past and it is no longer true today.

Re:As Last Module Docks, China Completes Its Space Station by dr_dshiv on Wednesday November 02, 2022 @03:18AM (#33432265)
Honestly, copying is what you are supposed to do with technology when you are competing from behind.
Re:As Last Module Docks, China Completes Its Space Station by adhesive_wombat on Wednesday November 02, 2022 @09:33AM (#33435490)
See: early space programme when the the US realised it was behind where Germany had been.
Re:As Last Module Docks, China Completes Its Space Station by JackFr on Wednesday November 02, 2022 @10:37AM (#33436523)
See: Samuel Slater sneaking out of Britain to Rhode Island after memorizing the construction details of Arkwright's water frame.
Re:As Last Module Docks, China Completes Its Space Station by cptskippy on Wednesday November 02, 2022 @11:42AM (#33437672)
I wouldn't consider whispering German scientists away to the United States as copying, it seems more like theft.
Re:As Last Module Docks, China Completes Its Space Station by ChemSpider on Wednesday November 02, 2022 @07:07AM (#33433922)
Just one of many examples: The WIV BSL-4 lab in Wuhan was built as a French-Chinese cooperation (modeled after a similar lab in Lyon, France) with the explicit goal to do joint experiments. But once it was built, the French were kicked out.
Re:As Last Module Docks, China Completes Its Space Station by philwelch on Wednesday November 02, 2022 @08:51AM (#33434894)
And the French getting kicked out is only the second worst consequence of that project! Though for what it’s worth, I think there was Western collaboration with WIV as well.
Re:As Last Module Docks, China Completes Its Space Station by GauntletWizard on Thursday November 03, 2022 @02:51PM (#33455601)
The first-worst has thankfully not happened yet - China was lobbying that now they had a BSL-4 Lab, they should also have a sample of Smallpox. The consequences of that would have been disastrous.
Re:As Last Module Docks, China Completes Its Space Station by philwelch on Thursday November 03, 2022 @08:00PM (#33459745)
At this point I would favor even the CDC destroying theirs.
Re:As Last Module Docks, China Completes Its Space Station by 83 on Wednesday November 02, 2022 @09:40AM (#33435585)
> I frequently see statements from naive Americans that all that the Chinese do is based on copying, but unfortunately for USA, that was true only in the past and it is no longer true today.

Just because you don't follow them doesn't mean they don't exist. Plenty of ongoing IP theft cases show this is not true. This case closed a few years back that pretty much wiped out a Billion+ dollar US company: https://www.justice.gov/opa/pr/chinese-company-sinovel-wind-...

Re:As Last Module Docks, China Completes Its Space Station by chmod775 on Thursday November 03, 2022 @03:09AM (#33447953)
Wind turbines!

This example is immensely funny to me, since in the 90s the NSA stole trade secrets related to wind turbines from the German company Enercon and passed it on to the US company Kenetech, who then managed to get a patent in the US. Similar to the US company affected here, Enercon had a very close brush with bankruptcy.

English sources are a bit scarce, but here's an article that references it:

> Some months later, a former NSA agent admitted that the organisation had secretly intercepted Enercon's data communications and monitored conference calls. The NSA passed all the information it gleaned on to Kenetech.[1]

There's also a report on ECHELON for the European parliament that mentions this case among others[2]. Some more cases became known through documents leaked by Snowden.

To complete this circle German intelligence services would now have to steal trade secrets related to wind turbines from China, but sadly they're explicitly forbidden from conduction industrial espionage, to the chagrin of German companies who are feeling disadvantaged.

[1] https://www.irishtimes.com/business/electronic-spies-torture...

[2] https://irp.fas.org/program/process/rapport_echelon_en.pdf

Re:As Last Module Docks, China Completes Its Space Station by bigcat12345678 on Saturday November 05, 2022 @01:48PM (#33483763)
So the Chinese even stole the method of stealing, from USA!

They are indeed IP theft in their genetics!

Re:As Last Module Docks, China Completes Its Space Station by natch on Wednesday November 02, 2022 @10:04AM (#33435961)
> but there are also many which appear surprisingly creative and original

ftfy

I don’t claim there is no creativity in China. But to claim that everything that looks new to you is therefore original goes too far.

Re:As Last Module Docks, China Completes Its Space Station by 2Gkashmiri on Wednesday November 02, 2022 @01:42PM (#33439902)
what is stopping those naive americans from going to china, buying those "stolen and improved but not shared with us legally" products and sell them on their own back home? its not like chinese businesses would sue them or anything so whats the big deal as you say?

they copy you, you copy their advances back and you are back in parity.

Re:As Last Module Docks, China Completes Its Space Station by wellthisisgreat on Wednesday November 02, 2022 @04:13PM (#33442304)
Not everyone wants to break the laws. Even of another country.

In China the repercussions for what you described may go way beyond the legal framework, you may be labeled a spy or something like that. This hasn’t applied to doing that in US / Western countries

Re:As Last Module Docks, China Completes Its Space Station by bigcat12345678 on Saturday November 05, 2022 @01:52PM (#33483822)
> go way beyond the legal framework, you may be labeled a spy or something like that

I mean, a few hundreds years ago, the US continent was populated by Savages. They got educated and civilized now.

So give China another 1 hundred years. They'll be as civilized as US today. They probably would routinely threaten nukes for countries not practicing the "wholistic democracy" [1]; they'll also cut supply of key components from global supply chain when India is approaching their supremacy; and sanction Vietnam because they dont act like dogies...

[1] https://www.globaltimes.cn/page/202208/1272926.shtml

Re:As Last Module Docks, China Completes Its Space Station by bigcat12345678 on Wednesday November 02, 2022 @02:44AM (#33432068)
> Once parity is reached, China cuts collaboration agreements and keeps further advancements within China

Any such actual event happening?

I have heard this stated repeatedly, but my Google search reveals no actual reporting, other than the ones where the foreign party voluntarily exited or being forced aware from their own political pressure (that is not from Chinese side).

Re:As Last Module Docks, China Completes Its Space Station by natch on Wednesday November 02, 2022 @10:14AM (#33436125)
Asked and answered. WIV was one.
Re:As Last Module Docks, China Completes Its Space Station by bigcat12345678 on Saturday November 05, 2022 @01:54PM (#33483836)
Not satisfactory though
Re:As Last Module Docks, China Completes Its Space Station by captainmuon on Wednesday November 02, 2022 @04:20AM (#33432670)
I think describing China as one monolithic block in that way is problematic and denies the agency of Chinese people. It is tempting to look at the different political system and lump everything together. You have to distinguish between the government, researchers, and Chinese companies. I know many Chinese researchers who are collaborating fairly, and they have very similar interests and - mixed - incentives as western scientists do.

It is true that Chinese companies do what you described, I think at some point there was even an offical slogan for it. But this is just as much due to the "capitalist" side as to the "communist" side. I'm pretty sure if an American company was behind technologically they would do the same. I recall Tesla poaching battery and car manufacturing specialists for example. Not saying that is great, but it would be naive to assume they would do otherwise.

Re:As Last Module Docks, China Completes Its Space Station by tomp on Wednesday November 02, 2022 @10:09AM (#33436043)
What agency do Chinese people have?
Re:As Last Module Docks, China Completes Its Space Station by captainmuon on Wednesday November 02, 2022 @10:31AM (#33436408)
The people have independent ideas and wills - and not a hive mind - is what I'm saying.

> China doesn't collaborate, it just takes until it reaches scientific and technological parity. Once parity is reached, China cuts collaboration agreements and keeps further advancements within China.

Regardless of what strategy the government is pursuing, I know personally that many Chinese researchers do collaborate on an honest basis. They have to put a lot of effort into dispelling the prejudice that they just want to leech technology for their government.

Re:As Last Module Docks, China Completes Its Space Station by bigcat12345678 on Saturday November 05, 2022 @01:55PM (#33483862)
Think for a moment how ridiculous it is to assume Chinese individuals have no free mind.
Re:As Last Module Docks, China Completes Its Space Station by philwelch on Wednesday November 02, 2022 @08:47AM (#33434837)
Good for him. Collaborating with the CCP regime is not in the best interest of the US or other Western countries, and in fact, US policy would be better served in the long run by isolating and decoupling from China even more.