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Re:U.S. workers have gotten way less productive. No one is s... by ep103 on Monday October 31, 2022 @09:58AM (#33405762)
During Covid, people were hiding in their homes, quarantined, with nothing to do but work.

This year, companies expect workers to return to office, despite little change in conditions, except now we have to deal with all of the above issues you've just mentioned, AND the fact that employees have now proven they can work remotely perfectly well.

It should neither be surprising that in a system where healthcare is tied to employment, that productivity jumped while people were locking themselves in their houses from a plague, or that productivity dropped afterwards, or that it might drop given the complete callousness of our current system.

Re:U.S. workers have gotten way less productive. No one is s... by cestith on Monday October 31, 2022 @10:13AM (#33405945)
All of what you've both said, plus the number of people who thought or still think COVID-19 is "no big deal" who now have a pulmonary deficiency and long-term mental fog.
Re:U.S. workers have gotten way less productive. No one is s... by AnthonBerg on Monday October 31, 2022 @10:21AM (#33406084)
Indeed.

In support of this—part of it!—here’s one paper of many: “The Neurobiology of Long COVID” by M. Monje, neurobiologist at Stanford, and A. Iwasaki, immunologist at Yale.

https://doi.org/10.1016/j.neuron.2022.10.006

People with measurable neurobiological issues will show a measurable productivity drop.

Re:U.S. workers have gotten way less productive. No one is s... by Animats on Monday October 31, 2022 @08:28PM (#33415372)
Prevalence of "Long COVID" is hard to measure at this point, but based on symptom reporting, about 15% of people who test positive for COVID have some symptoms more than 2 months later.[1] More data is available for people who have had heart and brain MRI scans, which show inflammation. It may be possible to diagnose this with a special eye exam that detects inflammation in the eye's blood vessels. The tests are still very experimental, but there are objective measures of damage.

[1] https://jamanetwork.com/journals/jamanetworkopen/fullarticle...

Re:U.S. workers have gotten way less productive. No one is s... by AnthonBerg on Tuesday November 01, 2022 @06:35AM (#33419299)
In support of this, I want to mention that there are known and measurable biomarkers that connect reported symptoms to undeniable physical symptoms.

Low cortisol is very common. That’s just one example. With low cortisol it’s hard to feel good or function 100%.

One paper of many that show this kind of relationship (a preprint): “Distinguishing features of Long COVID identified through immune profiling” — https://doi.org/10.1101/2022.08.09.22278592

It’s also important to note that there was a study that seemed to show that Long COVID was just anxiety or in people’s imagination. Because people who said they had Long COVID didn’t have SARS-CoV-2 antibodies. The thing is that not everybody seroconverts. Not everybody actually produces antibodies after infection; We simply can’t exclude Long COVID diagnoses based on looking at those particular antibodies. So that study can’t show what it has been said to show. (I can provide sources for this but am out of time. It’s on my honor.)

Re:U.S. workers have gotten way less productive. No one is s... by ep103 on Tuesday November 01, 2022 @10:12PM (#33430673)
The best explanation I've seen thus far, assuming there aren't other complicating factors (which there often are) is that the immune system stays hyperactive in some people after infection. This causes excess production of IL-6 and IL-10, which in turn causes something called the kynurenine shunt. That in turn results in lowered central serotonin rates in the brain and heightened glutamate. This off balance results in lowered dopamine as the production of serotonin and dopamine are comingled. Dopamine usually breaks down to your typical epinephrine and norepinephrine levels. But since dopamine is at a lowered state, you get less epinephrine and norepinephrine. I'm guessing, but do not know the pathway, that lowered epinephrine and norepinephrine explain the lowered cortisol.

Either way, the treatment should be the same. Take a corticosteroid to lower the IL6 & 10 levels, ensure the patient is getting proper sleep and nutrients, and not doing anything to exacerbate lowered serotonin/dopamine levels, and cross your fingers.

I've started to hear of companies that are testing for elevated cytokines as a proof of long covid, and my family member's hospital has started educating their staff on cytokine release syndrome in the rare patient who has a reaction to a vaccine shot, both of which, for me, imply the industry might be moving in this direction for explanation. fingers crossed

Re:U.S. workers have gotten way less productive. No one is s... by tick_tock_tick on Monday October 31, 2022 @02:45PM (#33410661)
I mean it's such a small percent do you really think it would show up in national data?
Re:U.S. workers have gotten way less productive. No one is s... by hezralig on Monday October 31, 2022 @03:33PM (#33411516)
What is such a small percent and where are you getting your data?
Re:U.S. workers have gotten way less productive. No one is s... by tick_tock_tick on Monday October 31, 2022 @05:54PM (#33413816)
"Long COVID" and medical journals.... Even the highest estimates only have it as a very small percentage of symptomatic patients which is already a subset of the general population.
Re:U.S. workers have gotten way less productive. No one is s... by komali2 on Monday October 31, 2022 @10:25PM (#33416194)
If you change it instead to be a subset of the working age population, does the percentage look higher?
Re:U.S. workers have gotten way less productive. No one is s... by cestith on Tuesday November 01, 2022 @10:37AM (#33421793)
I've been reading it's 10 to 20% of people who test positive have symptoms at least a month, and as much as 5 to 7% three to six months later. The US workforce is around 160 million people. About 60% of the population is estimated to have had SARS-Cov-2 at least once.

60% of 160 million is 96 million. So 5% of that is 4.6 million people or so with at least a solid portion of a year of symptoms.

There's mounting evidence that some of the damage could take years to recover or even be lifelong.

The current word from the Mayo Clinic is about 20% of folks have what they're calling Post-COVID Syndrome between one month and one year after an infection, with at least one symptom likely from the viral infection. https://www.mayoclinic.org/diseases-conditions/coronavirus/i...

If we look at 20% of 60% of the workforce that's around 19 million people symptomatic for over a month after the initial positive test. Twelve percent, almost one in eight people in the workplace.

Re:U.S. workers have gotten way less productive. No one is s... by ep103 on Tuesday November 01, 2022 @10:13PM (#33430681)
My understanding from other articles is its currently 1 in every 3 people currently unemployed cite long covid as the primary reason for inability to return to work, though that data may be a few months old now.
Re:U.S. workers have gotten way less productive. No one is s... by baxtr on Monday October 31, 2022 @04:36PM (#33412629)
The difficult part of it is: for some people it is literally nothing. We had it now for the fourth time since 2020 even though we’re properly vaccinated and careful as much as life permits.

It’s a bit worse than a cold but much better for than the flu. So, yes, for us life just goes on with COVID. No need to change anything.

Re:U.S. workers have gotten way less productive. No one is s... by autoexec on Monday October 31, 2022 @05:07PM (#33413160)
That is a problem. It's a dice roll each time a person is infected depending on a huge number of factors including what strain they've been hit with. Reinfections can give worse odds each time. People who got lucky once or twice before might be more careless thinking their luck will continue and end up screwing themselves.

https://www.webmd.com/lung/news/20220707/each-covid-19-reinf...

Re:U.S. workers have gotten way less productive. No one is s... by Animats on Monday October 31, 2022 @08:39PM (#33415447)
"Reinfections can give worse odds each time."

Not necessarily worse, but there is cumulative damage.

In the UK, about 7% of COVID cases that get medical attention are now re-infections. That number increases with time; it was only 4% last February. Immunity from getting COVID is time-limited and not that long. One study said "time between reinfections ranged from 90 to 650 days, with the average being 343 days".

Over a decade, this might gradually debilitate most of the population.

Re:U.S. workers have gotten way less productive. No one is s... by autoexec on Tuesday November 01, 2022 @01:15AM (#33417230)
I'm hoping that over the coming decade we get better defenses. Improved vaccines, treatments, and a greater understanding of the virus could prevent a lot of that harm. It hasn't been long enough to see what the long term consequences of infections or even our vaccines and current treatments will be for that matter, but I'll stay up to date on vaccines and continue taking sensible precautions against catching or spreading the virus. It's the best I can do to help my odds given what we know currently.
Re:U.S. workers have gotten way less productive. No one is s... by AnthonBerg on Monday October 31, 2022 @05:16PM (#33413297)
There are many, many scientists who are attempting to warn us that isn’t nothing. The literature is piling up.

Paper: Immunological dysfunction persists for 8 months following initial mild-to-moderate SARS-CoV-2 infection – https://doi.org/10.1038/s41590-021-01113-x

Paper: “Excess risk for acute myocardial infarction mortality during the COVID-19 pandemic” — https://doi.org/10.1002/jmv.28187

Paper: “p53/NF-kB Balance in SARS-CoV-2 Infection: From OMICs, Genomics and Pharmacogenomics Insights to Tailored Therapeutic Perspectives (COVIDomics)” — https://doi.org/10.3389/fphar.2022.871583

SARS-CoV-2 directly and indirectly interferes with p53 expression and balance.

On p53: “p53, cellular tumor antigen p53 (UniProt name); p53 proteins are crucial in vertebrates, where they prevent cancer formation. As such, p53 has been described as "the guardian of the genome" because of its role in conserving stability by preventing genome mutation. Hence TP53 is classified as a tumor suppressor gene.” — https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/P53

The literature goes on and on and on. People really are not okay after contracting this virus. I know plenty of people who simply are not recovering after COVID illness. Friends. Close family. Kids.

We are being warned.

And crucially: We can clean this crap out of the air. Nobody has to breathe in SARS-CoV-2. We absolutely must demand that something is done. There’s lots and lots that can be done.

Re:U.S. workers have gotten way less productive. No one is s... by krater23 on Monday October 31, 2022 @05:33PM (#33413536)
I would not wonder if you throw so much research time to a normal flu you will find similar things.
Re:U.S. workers have gotten way less productive. No one is s... by Animats on Monday October 31, 2022 @08:46PM (#33415522)
People do study that. There's known to be a significantly increased risk of heart attack and stroke in people who have recovered from influenza, but that risk returns to baseline after about two months. The big risk is in the first 7 days.[1]

[1] https://www.nejm.org/doi/full/10.1056/NEJMoa1702090

Re:U.S. workers have gotten way less productive. No one is s... by bigbillheck on Tuesday November 01, 2022 @08:58AM (#33420543)
There's been a serious research effort against influenza for a century now.
Re:U.S. workers have gotten way less productive. No one is s... by tick_tock_tick on Monday October 31, 2022 @06:33PM (#33414267)
All of these seem to say the risks of complications are extremely rare? I mean it's endemic at this point so it's really really shitty if you are one of the unlucky few but what can we even do?

> We can clean this crap out of the air. Nobody has to breathe in SARS-CoV-2.

?? What do you even mean. Maybe if the vaccine prevented spreading the virus we could but until we develop that I don't see how that is possible.

Re:U.S. workers have gotten way less productive. No one is s... by AnthonBerg on Monday October 31, 2022 @07:25PM (#33414809)
With SARS-CoV-2, complications are more common than death, and it’s still among the top reasons why people die.

Re. cleaning it out of the air: It’s literally airborne and it can literally be cleaned out of the air.

When infected, people emit tiny fluid particles which contain the virus. These are so small that they don’t fall to the ground. Filter materials like in HEPA filters and respirator masks strip these particles out of the air. Very effectively. (Surgical masks don’t work. Same kind of material, gaps at the sides. It doesn’t work.)

We can literally clean the air. We do not have to breathe this virus in. That’s just one of the things we can do.

Paper: “Effectiveness of HEPA Filters at Removing Infectious SARS-CoV-2 from the Air” – https://doi.org/10.1128/msphere.00086-22

Paper: “The Removal of Airborne Severe Acute Respiratory Syndrome Coronavirus 2 (SARS-CoV-2) and Other Microbial Bioaerosols by Air Filtration on Coronavirus Disease 2019 (COVID-19) Surge Units” – https://doi.org/10.1093/cid/ciab933

“Ten scientific reasons in support of airborne transmission of SARS-CoV-2” – https://doi.org/10.1016/s0140-6736(21)00869-2

Why am I saying all of this?

Because I have a moral obligation to do so.

Why do I know this?

I don’t know anything. I’ve just read those scientific papers.

Why did I read them?

Because high-risk pregnancy.

But does it apply outside of high-risk pregnancy?

Yes.

Re:U.S. workers have gotten way less productive. No one is s... by Der_Einzige on Tuesday November 01, 2022 @02:56AM (#33417878)
A national program to make every indoor space have proper ventilation / air purification.

It's shocking how much this can help with other things e.g. asthma or allergies.

Re:U.S. workers have gotten way less productive. No one is s... by krater23 on Monday October 31, 2022 @05:30PM (#33413506)
I everytime sayd it's not a big deal. Got my vaccine as it was ready but don't done anything else to don't get it. Now it's 2022, never had COVID, or maybee I don't noticed it. So, yes, not a big deal for me.
Re:U.S. workers have gotten way less productive. No one is s... by joebob42 on Monday October 31, 2022 @08:34PM (#33415414)
I'm not 100% sure if this is satire but it brought me joy.
Re:U.S. workers have gotten way less productive. No one is s... by propogandist on Monday October 31, 2022 @07:40PM (#33414975)
good thing there's the safe and effective vaccine tested on mice and N number of boosters.
Re:U.S. workers have gotten way less productive. No one is s... by lupire on Monday October 31, 2022 @05:36PM (#33413580)
HN aside, most people don't have jobs that you can do more of at home than at the office / factory / lab / school. Heck, with school it's quite obvious that "teaching hours delivered" sustained during pandemic, but "education learned" dropped by probably half.