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Re:Police Need Warrants to Search Homes. Child Welfare Agent... by lbwtaylor on Monday October 24, 2022 @04:47PM (#33322499)
>> Only about 5% of these kids are ultimately found to have been physically or sexually abused.

That statement tells you a lot about the "article". Only someone with a very strong agenda would view 5% child abuse as "only". "Mission Accomplished" I guess.

The opinion pieces sites one example of overreach by officials. Where are the stories about children saved from abuse? I guess that isn't relevant to the discussion.

One month of her children being taken away is a serious result. But there's a lot at risk here.

Re:Police Need Warrants to Search Homes. Child Welfare Agent... by duskwuff on Monday October 24, 2022 @05:07PM (#33322684)
> That statement tells you a lot about the "article". Only someone with a very strong agenda would view 5% child abuse as "only".

It also entirely ignores findings of neglect. An agent who inspects a home and discovers that the children are sleeping on the floor and have no clean clothing, for example, hasn't found evidence that children have been "physically or sexually abused", but has made a finding of neglect which may be sufficient to remove the children from the home.

This isn't to say that there aren't problems here. The article goes on to discuss a number of real problems in home inspections from child services -- but this statistic alone isn't representative of the real situation.

Re:Police Need Warrants to Search Homes. Child Welfare Agent... by PortiaBerries on Monday October 24, 2022 @05:08PM (#33322690)
So if 5% of extra-legal searches result in dirt, then extra-legal searches are worth it?
Re:Police Need Warrants to Search Homes. Child Welfare Agent... by Volundr on Monday October 24, 2022 @05:43PM (#33323041)
Pretty much my thinking as well. Exactly what % hit rate do we need before we give up on the 4th amendment? 5% seems shockingly low to me.

I'm all for protecting children, but if you have evidence one is being abused... get a warrant! Policing was never supposed to be easy.

Re:Police Need Warrants to Search Homes. Child Welfare Agent... by anm89 on Monday October 24, 2022 @05:48PM (#33323084)
Constitutional rights are not supposed to be conditional on some parties perceived utility to society of violating them

I understand you are potentially agreeing with me but framing this this way at all is problematic.

Re:Police Need Warrants to Search Homes. Child Welfare Agent... by DontchaKnowit on Monday October 24, 2022 @08:04PM (#33324374)
I don't really understand. Parent agrees with you completely and is framing in a non problematic way. Nothing wrong with a warrent
Re:Police Need Warrants to Search Homes. Child Welfare Agent... by googlryas on Monday October 24, 2022 @06:00PM (#33323206)
It's 5% of the children in houses they search, not 5% of children. And they're searching the houses specifically because there has been an allegation of abuse or neglect.
Re:Police Need Warrants to Search Homes. Child Welfare Agent... by 988747 on Monday October 24, 2022 @06:08PM (#33323291)
Allegations of abuse or neglect are common tactics during custody battle in divorce. I guess that's why only 5% turn out to be true.
Re:Police Need Warrants to Search Homes. Child Welfare Agent... by jstarfish on Monday October 24, 2022 @06:21PM (#33323414)
Mandatory reporting also inflates the numbers. Teachers have to report anything they hear, even if it's kids exaggerating obvious nonsense.
Re:Police Need Warrants to Search Homes. Child Welfare Agent... by jjk166 on Monday October 24, 2022 @06:10PM (#33323307)
A 95% false positive rate is extremely high, and the cost, both in terms of the emotional health of those involved, as well as the strain on resources for a chronically underfunded public service, is far from zero.

Estimates are that around 16% of children are abused, so if you're only finding 5% it means you're substantially worse at choosing households to investigate than if you were picking at random. Of course that's a national average and some places may be better or worse, but really all that indicates is that resources are being diverted to the wrong areas. Every hour of time and every dollar spent investigating households without good reason is stolen from a victim who truly needed it.

Obviously not every investigation needs to find abuse to be justified, the whole point of the investigation is we don't know if something is wrong or not. But just because there is an occasional success does not mean that the current system is working, nonetheless optimal.

Re:Police Need Warrants to Search Homes. Child Welfare Agent... by thwayunion on Monday October 24, 2022 @06:44PM (#33323632)
> Estimates are that around 16% of children are abused, so if you're only finding 5% it means you're substantially worse at choosing households to investigate than if you were picking at random.

Sampling iid would be unconstitutional and also obviously politically infeasible. So, the only people who are investigated are people for whom there is probable cause or at least an accusation.

Once you're sampling from a population for whom you have either probable cause or at least an accusation, the group under suspicion probably not an iid sample of the overall population and may even be skewed in the wrong direction. Eg, a physical abuser is more likely to conceal a bruise than the parent of a particularly careless child.

Additionally, suppose for sake of argument that abusers are in fact over-represented in the accused group. The behavior of both abusers and the abused confounds the statistical analysis. Consider alcoholism as an analogy (but also very correlated underlying pathology). Just like with alocholism, there are "high functioning" abusers who are able to avert suspicion and, in case of suspicion, manipulate the people who they are abusing.

So we are sampling from a constrained population in which abusers may in fact be under-represented, and then again within that group there are confounding issues.

None of this is to say that we should abandon constitutional rights, of course. But in a country with strong protections for the accused we might actually expect certain types of crimes to be more difficult to investigate and prosecute than a "just iid sample" approach.

(It's also possible that the estimates are wrong, and in both directions. It's additionally possible that the 16% statistic refers to a different definition of abuse than the 5% number. Etc. etc.)

Re:Police Need Warrants to Search Homes. Child Welfare Agent... by jjk166 on Tuesday October 25, 2022 @09:36AM (#33330272)
You're right, the population of people under suspicion is not an iid sample of the overall population and it would be unreasonable to expect the same percentage of abuse. However, we choose who is in this population by defining the set of rules for which cases are treated as legitimate and which are dismissed. If it skews in the wrong direction, that's a failure of the system to properly filter cases.

Yes a kid who ran into a doorknob is more likely to show up at school with a visible black eye than the kid whose mom is used to covering black eyes with makeup, but CPS knows, or at least should know this and alter their behavior to spend less time investigating a single unconcealed black eye and spend more time looking at the kid wearing concealer on one eye on a regular basis. The whole point of having trained professionals investigate is because we know that accusations are a noisy signal that must be filtered.

I fully agree that the 16% number should not be treated as a target. For starters, that's just sexual abuse, the rate of physical or sexual abuse is necessarily higher. But the point is that when evaluating a system you can't simply say you find abuse at a non-zero rate and thus it's working - a broken clock is right twice a day, and doing anything at all will find something. You have to compare to a placebo to see what effect your actions are having. If you're substantially worse than the placebo, that doesn't mean sugar pills are the cure, but it means you need to do things differently.

Re:Police Need Warrants to Search Homes. Child Welfare Agent... by lbwtaylor on Monday October 24, 2022 @06:45PM (#33323641)
Your suggestion seems to be that requiring warrants is going to make the investigations more efficient (as poorly evidenced cases will not result in a search).

I would love to see evidence there, I think that's wishful thinking. Requiring warrants will simply mean fewer searches. I understand those who think that's a fair balance for individual rights. But I don't see it uncovering more abuse. I see it uncovering less, resources being kept equal.

Re:Police Need Warrants to Search Homes. Child Welfare Agent... by thwayunion on Monday October 24, 2022 @06:59PM (#33323765)
A naive interpretation of the statistical analysis, ironically, in fact suggests that we could do better at investigating this crime by simply sampling iid for CPS checks :-\
Re:Police Need Warrants to Search Homes. Child Welfare Agent... by jjk166 on Tuesday October 25, 2022 @08:41AM (#33329699)
Well the only way you're ever going to see evidence is if you try. We could always go back to the old system if there isn't improvement. But frankly, if there isn't enough evidence to convince one person who is familiar with child protection that further investigation is warranted, then further investigation isn't warranted. If that eliminates a lot of cases from someone's docket, good - they can reallocate those resources to where they are needed.
Re:Police Need Warrants to Search Homes. Child Welfare Agent... by staticman2 on Tuesday October 25, 2022 @10:12AM (#33330697)
"Estimates are that around 16% of children are abused"

Who is estimating 16% of children are abused?

It doesn't sound correct at all.

On it's face the simplest explanation is child protective services is investigating a different definition of "abuse" than whomever claimed 16% of children are abused.

Re:Police Need Warrants to Search Homes. Child Welfare Agent... by jstarfish on Monday October 24, 2022 @06:19PM (#33323402)
> Where are the stories about children saved from abuse?

You won't find them. Taking kids out of dubiously-neglectful households and putting them in foster care does not yield success stories.

CPS does not stop abuse. It just displaces it.