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Re:Why We're Moving on from Firebase by klabb3 on Saturday October 15, 2022 @03:25PM (#33217787)
It's funny because Google pretty much invented this model that users want and love. App Engine was launched in 2008, before GCP, before docker and before Cloud was a term, basically. It had a globally replicated persistence layer, job queues, auth, scale to 0, a generous free tier, a fully fledged local dev server and a single command to deploy, and all config lived in a single file. At the time it was really innovative, and attracted a lot of hip startup- and college grad types.

The reason people liked it is, imo, because it was a single product with multiple features. GCP OTOH, has been about decoupling (or loosely coupling) the product suite, and users are supposed to pick and choose from a giant array of half-products. Simply being aware of all products, their interoperability and predicting the cost is a full time job, easily (it's mostly large enterprise who can absorb that cost). There's nothing wrong with the pick-and-choose model, if your products are simple, low level, and interoperable. But the product suite has grown organically, seemingly without coherence, so there's very little in terms of paved paths to walk – it's so confusing. When a shining star like Firebase comes along (2014) Google clearly knows not to mess with it too much. But even Firebase isn't strong enough to resist the gravitational pull of the GCP behemoth.

Re:Why We're Moving on from Firebase by asciimike on Saturday October 15, 2022 @03:57PM (#33218074)
> The reason people liked it is, imo, because it was a single product with multiple features. GCP OTOH, has been about decoupling (or loosely coupling) the product suite, and users are supposed to pick and choose from a giant array of half-products.

"There are two ways to make money, bundling and unbundling." - Jim Barksdale

The quote is mostly provided in jest, but at the same time there are many customers who want something totally bundled that solves 90% of their problems in 20 minutes but literally can't solve the last 10%, and there are other customers that want generic building blocks that can solve 100% of their problems, even if it takes years to do.

I think it makes sense that Google offers customers both.

> But even Firebase isn't strong enough to resist the gravitational pull of the GCP behemoth.

Part of the reason we got acquired is because of the above: we knew that we had a number of limitations (e.g. infra scalability) that could be solved, and we knew that GCP had DX problems offering a bundled mobile offering (App Engine wasn't "mobile" focused).

And that acquisition really paid dividends: we were able to build a _ton_ of "bundled" services for Firebase by 2016, and continue deeper integrations with GCP (Storage, Functions, Firestore, Auth, etc.). There are definitely UX differences (some of them intentional, due to different audiences), some not (e.g. it seems like not having an integrated log viewer is a DX miss, though my assumption is that staffing on the Firebase side is down so the decision was made to just send folks to the GCP console :/).

Re:Why We're Moving on from Firebase by snovv_crash on Saturday October 15, 2022 @04:35PM (#33218360)
I believe it was the inventor of Regex who said:

Easy things should be easy, and complicated things should be possible.

The problem with GCP is that a bog-standard setup is considerably more complicated than it was before. Maybe the config files are roughly the same, but there isn't a single dashboard where you can see everything from storage to instance usage to queue delays anymore. Instead there are a bunch of dashboards, each with way too much detail for getting a broad overview of your metrics.

Re:Why We're Moving on from Firebase by asciimike on Saturday October 15, 2022 @05:19PM (#33218774)
> I believe it was the inventor of Regex who said:

> Easy things should be easy, and complicated things should be possible.

Was he being serious when he said that? I'd hardly call regex a technology where easy things are easy and complicated things are possible (there are plenty of impossible things in regex implementations e.g. backtracking in RE2).

Re:Why We're Moving on from Firebase by js2 on Saturday October 15, 2022 @05:40PM (#33218914)
It was Alan Kay and the quote is “Simple things should be simple, complex things should be possible” and it wasn’t about any specific technology, it was a slogan for what they were building at PARC.

https://www.quora.com/What-is-the-story-behind-Alan-Kay-s-ad...

Re:Why We're Moving on from Firebase by andirk on Saturday October 15, 2022 @05:52PM (#33219003)
How about: easy + common things should have tools built for them out-of-the-box, and complicated things should be offered a path to the bare metal.
Re:Why We're Moving on from Firebase by snovv_crash on Sunday October 16, 2022 @04:34AM (#33222099)
This is an engineering choice by RE2 to not support backtracking or lookahead in exchange for runtime guarantees. PCRE2, which is not much more complex, supports both of these, but doesn't give the same runtime guarantees as RE2. For someone who is operating on vast quantities of unknown, unsanitized data, eg. Google, RE2s limitations are a reasonable tradeoff to make to avoid DOS situations from malformed or malicious inputs.
Re:Why We're Moving on from Firebase by lowbloodsugar on Saturday October 15, 2022 @04:05PM (#33218134)
Yeah I was there. It was great because it was, apparently, impossibly cheap. Then they decided to take it out of beta and jack the prices. People who were spending $10/mo suddenly had $1000/mo bill.

Never trust google.

Re:Why We're Moving on from Firebase by klabb3 on Saturday October 15, 2022 @04:50PM (#33218498)
Yeah I don't think PaaS should ever be proprietary in terms of API surface. It's just perverse incentives, you get subsidized until market saturation, and then they jack up the prices. The cloud providers should, imo, compete on uptime, resilience, performance, etc. Kinda like the VPS or VPN providers of today.
Re:Why We're Moving on from Firebase by asciimike on Saturday October 15, 2022 @05:09PM (#33218686)
Let's take a quick example of S3: GCS was able to take the same API and they both compete on uptime, performance, etc. Price/GB has remained stable or decreased with new tiering options over time. Managed K8s clusters, SQL databases, etc. are all competing in similar ways.

If folks want to build proprietary APIs, and people choose to use them because they are faster/better/cheaper/more suited to a particular use case, I'm not sure why that's a bad thing.

Engineering is tradeoffs, proprietary API surface is one of many things people consider.

Re:Why We're Moving on from Firebase by klabb3 on Saturday October 15, 2022 @05:46PM (#33218959)
True, I didn't mean to come off as a purist. I think it depends on the service provided and it's maturity level. If you need basics like auth, persistence etc i think those parts should be open, at the very least have a stable API that has >1 provider. (The SRE analogy would be a SPOF).

For things like push- and email notifications, it makes more sense that a provider is involved (although APIs should probably still be open). New innovations can always start out proprietary, and the inventors can always offer support and managed infra for OSS projects.

Why? I believe the health and future innovations within the tech sector relies on healthy competition, and imo, that means that the majority of standard services have multiple providers to choose from. The only way to migrate from one provider to another is through standardized, or open, APIs. VPCs is a pretty good example of this: I can get the premium option from GCP or AWS, and have uptime, bandwidth, and choose a DC from all over the world. OTOH, I can get a cheaper, local one, depending on my needs.

Re:Why We're Moving on from Firebase by thayne on Saturday October 15, 2022 @07:17PM (#33219547)
Let's continue that s3 example. There are many products branded as "s3 compatible", but they all have slightly different definitions of what that compatibility means. Not to mention that the s3 api itself is a moving target, and doesn't even have a version number you can reference, so the best you can do is list which features you do or don't support. Some of these products actually have native APIs which IMO are better than S3, partly because they can learn from mistakes in s3s API.
Re:Why We're Moving on from Firebase by djit on Saturday October 15, 2022 @04:28PM (#33218306)
I miss the App Engine days. As you said it was ahead of its time, simple, straightforward and cheap!
Re:Why We're Moving on from Firebase by jamest on Saturday October 15, 2022 @10:35PM (#33220578)
Fun fact: the original App Engine datastore evolved into Firestore (which now powers Snapchat and many others).
Re:Why We're Moving on from Firebase by j16sdiz on Sunday October 16, 2022 @01:58AM (#33221386)
no, thet were seperate product. What google did was rebrand some of them under firebase umbellera.
Re:Why We're Moving on from Firebase by deepsun on Sunday October 16, 2022 @12:09AM (#33220959)
It still is. It's still well and alive.
Re:Why We're Moving on from Firebase by js2 on Saturday October 15, 2022 @04:59PM (#33218595)
> App Engine was launched in 2008, before GCP, before docker and before Cloud was a term

Cloud computing was a term at least as far back as 1999. We didn't have the technology quite right that soon, but we had the idea and the term:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Opsware

https://www.wired.com/2000/08/loudcloud/

Archived version of Wired article: https://archive.ph/TeLPQ

Re:Why We're Moving on from Firebase by gen220 on Saturday October 15, 2022 @11:21PM (#33220786)
I've heard that General Magic [1] were the originator of the phrase "Cloud" (compute & data distributed across heterogeneous hardware).

I went digging and found an earlier WIRED article on General Magic, using the word a few times [2].

[1]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/General_Magic

[2]: https://www.wired.com/1994/04/general-magic/

Re:Why We're Moving on from Firebase by pjmlp on Sunday October 16, 2022 @04:18AM (#33222033)
Sun's motto was "The network is the computer" actually.

And back in the 2000s, CERN was having a go at their own cloud infrastructure, with the name of Grid Computing.

http://cds.cern.ch/record/560415/files/cer-002318141.pdf