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Re:Cleaning a Spoon Is Complex by throwamon on Sunday October 09, 2022 @09:48AM (#33140964)
This is ridiculous. The complexity of manually washing a spoon, even with all those steps added, isn't even in the same ballpark as manufacturing it. You need all of the same kind of steps to manufacture the spoon (including piping water to the factory and cleaning it with soap or whatever), and the other ones are orders of magnitude more complex. And just because you added more words and used some technical terms it doesn't show any more complexity.
Re:Cleaning a Spoon Is Complex by mastax on Sunday October 09, 2022 @09:54AM (#33141028)
It's not arguing that one is more or less complex than the other. It's saying that everything in modern life is complex, and simply saying "X is complex" isn't a sufficient basis to make a decision about the relative merits of X and Y.
Re:Cleaning a Spoon Is Complex by throwamon on Sunday October 09, 2022 @10:01AM (#33141120)
That's the problem. The original image is talking about "effort", which I take to be about energy and natural resource usage, but this response deflects it to complexity to make it seem like anything is justifiable regardless of how wasteful it is.
Re:Cleaning a Spoon Is Complex by mega_dingus on Sunday October 09, 2022 @10:34AM (#33141524)
Key words being "I take to be..."

You're outright admitting you can't understand the post, or the point of the post, as you want to steadfastly hold to the original premise

If the reply post talked about the petroleum and other natural resources used to extract and transport the sodium hydroxide et al to your home, would that placate you?

Re:Cleaning a Spoon Is Complex by throwamon on Sunday October 09, 2022 @10:44AM (#33141652)
No, I think I understand the point of the post perfectly fine, and I also happen to think you don't understand mine. The post is kinda like when someone says they don't buy things with "chemicals" in it and you take the opportunity to make a joke that highlights how naive they are. Doesn't mean there isn't a valid point being made if they were able to convey it better.
Re:Cleaning a Spoon Is Complex by 323 on Sunday October 09, 2022 @10:26AM (#33141413)
But then you have a lazy employee which doesn't wash the spoon properly, a patron gets intoxicated, or worse, dies (peanut allergy) and sues for $5 mil damage.

This unbounded liability in US law is the cause of a lot of bad things...

Re:Cleaning a Spoon Is Complex by _visgean on Sunday October 09, 2022 @10:27AM (#33141434)
has this happened?
Re:Cleaning a Spoon Is Complex by 323 on Sunday October 09, 2022 @10:31AM (#33141485)
It's even a business model:

> If you or a loved one gets sick after eating at a restaurant, contact OFT Food Safety & Injury Lawyers.

> To successfully sue a restaurant for food poisoning, you must prove that they had a duty, failed to meet that duty with negligent action or inaction. As a result, you became ill, and you suffered financial damages.

https://www.oftlaw.com/blog/can-you-sue-a-restaurant-for-foo...

> If the food is prepared with unclean cooking utensils

https://www.findlaw.com/injury/product-liability/food-poison...

Re:Cleaning a Spoon Is Complex by eesmith on Sunday October 09, 2022 @01:11PM (#33143110)
The question was has your scenario happened.

That said, it's a poorly phrased scenario. Anyone can sue for any amount.

Like Jason Scott's talk "That Awesome Time I Was Sued For Two Billion Dollars" - https://defcon.org/html/links/dc-archives/dc-17-archive.html...

Even having a maximum doesn't mean that someone can't file a suit asking for more.

So, who has won a case similar to what you described, and with a $5 million settlement?

And, why was that gratuitously high?

That's important, because we know there are decades of propaganda for why business owners need protection against excessive lawsuits, where the actual details show it was not excessive, most famously, Liebeck v. McDonald's Restaurants. That last one shows how the jury awarded $2.7 million in punitive damages, which was reduced to $480,000 by the judge - and was still higher than what Liebeck sued for.

That said, you should also address why there are lawyers with that business model, which might be less common elsewhere.

1) The US system prefers a more caveat emptor approach, where issues are resolved though civil lawsuits (or, alas, binding arbitration) than through government organization which can investigate cases of food poisoning.

2) The US's private health-care system means the poisoned person is by default obligated to pay for care, unless someone else can be forced to pay. If the food poisoning requires hospital care, this can be quite expensive.

3) The US does not have strong job security laws nor a strong social safety net. If someone get food poisoning which keeps them from working for a couple of days, they may easily be fired, and find them selves in economically precarious circumstances.

Because the US prefers lawsuits to resolve these things, there are lawyers who specialize in this area.

Change the laws - have strong food inspections, switch to single-payer health care, improve job security, and strengthen the social safety net for unemployed people - and there will be significantly less call for this business model.

Re:Cleaning a Spoon Is Complex by eesmith on Sunday October 09, 2022 @11:21AM (#33142065)
I don't see how bounded liability would prevent your scenario from happening.

Why is that a bad thing?

It sounds like the company doesn't have management in place to tell if an employee is lazy and doing a bad job, nor is willing to pay well enough to hire good employees.

Surely that's not a good thing.

Re:Cleaning a Spoon Is Complex by js2 on Sunday October 09, 2022 @10:22AM (#33141369)
Re:Cleaning a Spoon Is Complex by throwamon on Sunday October 09, 2022 @10:58AM (#33141790)
A tongue-in-cheek based on a straw man doesn't make you look good
Re:Cleaning a Spoon Is Complex by bmmayer1 on Sunday October 09, 2022 @09:57AM (#33141069)
Aren't there going to be likewise complex manufacturing processes behind the chemicals and machinery, including plastics, used in water treatment and piping?

It's turtles all the way down. That's the point.

Re:Cleaning a Spoon Is Complex by ryukafalz on Sunday October 09, 2022 @10:29AM (#33141456)
Those processes could reasonably be considered essential in modern times, because we all need to have potable water available anyway. The manufacture of plastic disposable spoons could not.
Re:Cleaning a Spoon Is Complex by throwamon on Sunday October 09, 2022 @11:00AM (#33141818)
Thanks, this is the obvious point every other reply here seems to blissfully ignore. The levels of cognitive dissonance are astonishing.
Re:Cleaning a Spoon Is Complex by ajuc on Sunday October 09, 2022 @09:50AM (#33140984)
Comparisons without numbers are just poetry.
[dead]
Re:Cleaning a Spoon Is Complex by throwamon on Sunday October 09, 2022 @09:59AM (#33141101)
Because we're destroying the planet and cynical takes like this post and replies to my comment aren't making it any better.
Re:Cleaning a Spoon Is Complex by JoeAltmaier on Sunday October 09, 2022 @10:02AM (#33141133)
The scale at which plastic spoons are manufactured completely dwarfs with efficiency, the effort to individually wash one spoon. It's likely 10X to 100X more expensive to the environment to wash that spoon.

See, its eco-theatre our generation will be remembered for. Fiddling around with plastic recycle while the planet burns.

Re:Cleaning a Spoon Is Complex by titzer on Sunday October 09, 2022 @10:07AM (#33141187)
What is asserted without evidence can be dismissed without evidence. In reality, humanity has been washing spoons since the dawn of...spoons. Humanity has been making plastic spoons for ~60 years. "Because it scales [1]" is no argument whatsoever for doing something unsustainable.

[1] Right now, with cheap oil, that is.

Re:Cleaning a Spoon Is Complex by JoeAltmaier on Sunday October 09, 2022 @10:16AM (#33141290)
So spoons are unsustainable? Not sure I follow.

It's more sustainable to throw away a plastic spoon that wash it. That's pretty plain - an individual has not optimized their process for cost and resource usage - they're just squirting randomly like 100X the soap it would take in a large industrial washer to get that spoon clean.

Efficiencies of scale are massive and irresistible. You cannot grow vegetables in your back yard at the same level of efficiency that big ag can, not even close.

You can't drive your individual car at anywhere the efficiency of a bus or train - we should all get on board that one, it makes sense to people. While somehow the other efficiencies don't. They just get mad when you point that out.

Re:Cleaning a Spoon Is Complex by aflag on Sunday October 09, 2022 @10:31AM (#33141483)
Industrially washing the spoon my be more efficient than someone washing it by hand. However, that's not really the comparison here. Even if the step of washing the newly created plastic spoons (if that exists at all) is more efficient, there's still a lot more going on.
Re:Cleaning a Spoon Is Complex by JoeAltmaier on Sunday October 09, 2022 @10:33AM (#33141520)
Yes, sure. But manufacturing a plastic trinket is similarly cheap, to the point of vanishing small cost.
Re:Cleaning a Spoon Is Complex by aflag on Sunday October 09, 2022 @11:49AM (#33142334)
It is cheap now, but think of it more as a loan. The price of being so wasteful will come for future generations who will have to deal with all our rubbish and all sort of environmental issues we've been causing in the past century or so.
Re:Cleaning a Spoon Is Complex by JoeAltmaier on Sunday October 09, 2022 @05:01PM (#33145310)
All true.

I think of it as a spaceship. We can argue about how expensive maintenance of the food recyclers, water purifiers and oxygen systems are, but that's really moot: we maintain those things or die.

We'd have to make the decision to stop the oil industry etc. before it matters though. Until then the marginal cost of 1 spoon is vanishing small, and fussing over it is spending time and effort on foolishness.

Re:Cleaning a Spoon Is Complex by titzer on Sunday October 09, 2022 @11:04AM (#33141868)
> It's more sustainable to throw away a plastic spoon that wash it.

I'm not sure what planet you live on, but I live on one with a finite amount of oil. It also happens to be a planet with beaches where I've picked up hundreds, if not thousands of these "sustainable" plastic spoons, and forks and knives and bottle caps and bottles, toothbrushes, straws, bags, and one-use containers of all kinds.

So when people talk about it being "sustainable", I admit, I fantasize about dumping a few hundred bags of this junk right on their front lawn and seeing how much they enjoy it.

In contrast, I have not once--not once--picked up a metal spoon off a beach.

Re:Cleaning a Spoon Is Complex by reedf1 on Sunday October 09, 2022 @10:24AM (#33141381)
What an astounding string of assertions. Maybe you should heed your own advice?
Re:Cleaning a Spoon Is Complex by throwamon on Sunday October 09, 2022 @10:08AM (#33141199)
I don't understand your point. Are we talking about recycling plastic spoons or washing reusable spoons? Are you suggesting using plastic spoons and discarding them is better than washing reusable spoons? And are there no costs at all in disposing them?
Re:Cleaning a Spoon Is Complex by JoeAltmaier on Sunday October 09, 2022 @10:12AM (#33141240)
read the article