Ukraine winning means what exactly? Russia leaving a pile of rubble and thousands dead? 20 years or rebuilding, a generation lost to war for what? Before the war there was a possibility for leaving Crimea annexed and keeping Ukraine neutral (Turkey almost had it when the US and UK spoiled it). Sure Putin would have continued to try to use his influence to push for more Russia friendly governments and try to influence elections but so would the west. Not letting Ukraine join NATO would have been worth all the dead we have now. Also there was no reason that Crimea would not become part of Ukraine again at a later time when tensions and leading ship change.

Marshal plan helped to rebuild Europe after the WWII while the Soviet Union was left behind.

The same could be expected of Ukraine and Russia after this war.

The war has nothing to do with Ukraine joining NATO. It was a lame excuse by Putin. And Ukraine is not responsible for all the dead Russians in this war. It is on Putin 100%.

Your other comment says you take insult to being called a Russia apologist. What is it you're doing here if not that?

Remember: Russia could just leave. They're invaders in a foreign country fighting for its homeland. Do you think Ukraine is happy about blowing up what would be incredibly useful peace-time infrastructure?

I have very close relatives in both Ukraine and Russia. I don't want to see Russia burn, but this is a fire of their own doing.

You don't want to be called a Russia apologist, stop repeating Russian propaganda and excuses.

So my point of view is now Russian propaganda? I am not excusing what Russia is doing yet you and others keep saying I do.

Yes, Russia could just leave, why aren't we trying to convince them of that other than supporting Ukraine with weapons? Where is the dialog? To make it clear, by dialog I do not mean conseeding any territory or giving into Putin.

You may not be attempting to spread Russian propaganda, but your point of view is one of Russia's many propagandist talking points. Do not be surprised at the negative reaction.

I just responded to your question about "why no dialog" elsewhere in the thread.

Thank you.

As far as I understand it, Putin’s actions are motivated by the belief that in order to continue to exist meaningfully as an imperial superpower Russia must have a sphere of influence whereby it dominates politically and economically those countries on its western borders.

I’m not sure there’s any possible dialog that will change his mind, particularly now he’s staked the country’s military reputation on being able to defeat Ukraine - he’s “all in”, afiacs - hence the (previously unthinkable) nuclear sabre rattling.

What you describe is Ukraine losing. Ukraine winning is the quickest way to end this conflict, and the only humane one.