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Re:Nuclear Close Calls: Able Archer 83 (2018) by lamontcg on Saturday October 08, 2022 @01:32AM (#33130025)
Yes, but you're arguing that up is actually down where Putin is going to launch nukes if he got what he wants which is the exact opposite of what is likely to happen.

This isn't WWII and Putin isn't literally Hitler and you sound like you read something once about WWII in a history textbook and you're desperate to a construct a parallel with appeasement that doesn't exist.

Appeasement is still bad, but it has nothing to do with causing Putin to launch nukes. The nuclear threat is still due to him having his back against the wall and while I don't think we should back down over that, you're trying to construct an alternative reality where its the opposite actions which could result in a nuclear exchange. That is a dangerous denial of reality which doesn't help in clearly thinking about the situation at all.

Your posturing to be more anti-Putin than anyone else may make you feel better about yourself and let you get angry at everyone else that isn't as edgy as you are, but being grounded in actual REALITY is the only way to get out of this crisis without a nuclear exchange (which more or less ties in with the topic of the OP since failure to clearly understand the motives of the other party in the conflict in the cold war nearly led to nuclear annihilation). You aren't helping.

Re:Nuclear Close Calls: Able Archer 83 (2018) by Mikeb85 on Saturday October 08, 2022 @01:43AM (#33130069)
It's definitely the first time since WWII that a democracy of 45 million people has been invaded... In fact, Ukraine in February was larger and more populous than any of the democracies that Hitler invaded.

> actual REALITY is the only way to get out of this crisis without a nuclear exchange

Ah yes "realpolitik". Which is straight up Russian propaganda to prevent us from reacting because "nuclear weapons". You aren't helping.

Re:Nuclear Close Calls: Able Archer 83 (2018) by lamontcg on Saturday October 08, 2022 @02:35AM (#33130291)
I want to see Russia driven out of Ukraine, for Putin to be removed out a window and for the Make Russia Great Again culture to collapse with the death of the strongman/myth. I'm just not blinding myself to the risks that are involved, I'm definitely not trying to convince myself that up is down.
Re:Nuclear Close Calls: Able Archer 83 (2018) by andrewflnr on Saturday October 08, 2022 @04:12AM (#33130665)
> you're arguing that up is actually down where Putin is going to launch nukes if he got what he wants which is the exact opposite of what is likely to happen.

Ah, no actually? None of that. Obviously he won't launch nukes after he gets what he wants. He probably won't even launch them if he doesn't, though that counts on him keeping a shred of rationality.

My only point here (distinct from those of others on the chain, please note) is that preserving liberty globally depends on not being cowed by someone threatening to use nuclear weapons. Even if they never actually launch, it would be a catastrophe if aggressors could get away with anything just by threatening to use nukes. Without exaggeration, you're potentially talking about the death of liberty worldwide. The only reason this is unlikely is that free nations tend to wake up before they get completely boiled frog-style; this is, in fact, my read on why everyone is suddenly supporting Ukraine and cutting off Russia after doing jack shit in 2014, they've lost all deniability on the threat Russia poses.

Re:Nuclear Close Calls: Able Archer 83 (2018) by lamontcg on Saturday October 08, 2022 @04:53PM (#33135923)
"The only way WWIII happens is if we appease Russia."

There's no WWIII if we appease Russia. There's a lot of other bad things though, including allowing Russia to get another win and to put up with their influence in our politics and society and watching as we slide further into Fascism. But that isn't a nuclear exchange.

We are risking WWIII by confronting Russia because of all those other things.

The situation is precarious enough that Biden has threatened retaliatory decapitation strikes to kill Putin in the event of the use of Russian tactical nuclear missiles. And that sounds like a rational and proportionate response that might avoid nuclear war (but opens a massive can of worms since retaliatory assassinations become likely).

You can't "flip the script" and argue that its the other side of the debate that leads to nuclear annihilation. You don't get off that easy, you have to deal with the fact that its worth it to risk it.

(Although with the way our politics is going it may be ultimately immaterial anyway in the long run).

Re:Nuclear Close Calls: Able Archer 83 (2018) by andrewflnr on Saturday October 08, 2022 @08:20PM (#33137273)
I'm asking you again to check the usernames you're quoting and the ones you're replying to. Then read what I actually wrote and see if it makes more sense.