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Re:AWS doesn't make sense for scientific computing by ptero on Friday October 07, 2022 @12:45PM (#33123763)
I think it really depends on the task. Where HIPAA violation is a real threat, the equation changes. And just for CYA purposes those projects can get pushed to a cloud. Which does not necessarily involve any attempts to make them any more secure, but this is a different topic.

That said, many scientists are operating on premise hardware like this: some servers in a shared rack and an el-cheapo storage solutions with an ssh access for people working in the lab. And it works just fine for them.

Cloud services focus for running business computing in a cloud, emphasizing recurring revenue. Most research labs are much more comfortable with spending the hardware portion of a grant upfront and not worrying about some student who, instead of working on some fluid dynamics problem found a script to re-train a stable diffusion and left it running over winter break. My 2c.

Re:AWS doesn't make sense for scientific computing by crazygringo on Friday October 07, 2022 @01:06PM (#33124072)
> And it works just fine for them.

Until it doesn't because there's a fire or huge power surge or whatever.

That's the point -- there's a lot of risk they're not taking into account, and by focusing on the "it works just fine for them", you're cherry picking the ones that didn't suffer disaster.

Re:AWS doesn't make sense for scientific computing by withinboredom on Friday October 07, 2022 @01:18PM (#33124258)
Ummm. I’ve def been unable to do anything for entire days because our AWS region went down and we had to rebuild the database from scratch. AWS goes down, you twiddle your thumbs and the people you report to are going to be asking why, for how long, etc. and you can’t give them an answer until AWS comes back to see how fubar things are.

When your own hardware rack goes down. You know the problem, how much it costs to fix it, and when it will come back up; usually within a few hours (or minutes) of it going down.

Do things catch fire, yes. But I think you’re over-estimating how often. In my entire life, I’ve had a single SATA connector catch fire and it just melted plastic before going out.

Re:AWS doesn't make sense for scientific computing by crazygringo on Friday October 07, 2022 @01:27PM (#33124382)
I'm not talking about temporary outages, I'm talking about data loss.

With AWS it's extremely easy to keep an up-to-date database backup in a different region.

And it's great that you haven't personally encountered disaster, but of course once again that's cherry-picking. And it's not just a component overheating, it's the whole closet on fire, it's a broken ceiling sprinkler system going off, it's a hurricane, it's whatever.

Re:AWS doesn't make sense for scientific computing by withinboredom on Friday October 07, 2022 @01:36PM (#33124511)
So was I also talking about data loss. Not everything can be replicated, but backups can and were made.

For the rest, there’s insurance. Most calculations done in a research setting are dependent upon that research surviving. If there’s a fire and the whole building goes down, those calculations are probably worthless now too.

Hell, most companies probably can’t survive their own building/factory burning down.

Re:AWS doesn't make sense for scientific computing by FpUser on Friday October 07, 2022 @03:48PM (#33126069)
>"With AWS it's extremely easy to keep an up-to-date database backup in a different region"

It is just as extremely easy on Hetzner or on premises

Re:AWS doesn't make sense for scientific computing by monkmartinez on Friday October 07, 2022 @04:34PM (#33126576)
I would say even easier on prem as you don't need to wade 15 layers deep to do anything. Since I have moved to hosting my own stuff at my house, I have learned that connecting a monitor and keyboard to a 'sever' is awesome for productivity. I know where everything is, its fast as hell, and everything is locked down. Monitoring temps, adjusting and configuring hardware is just better in every imaginable way. Need more RAM, Storage, Compute? Slap those puppies in there and send it.

For home gamers like myself, it's has become a no brainer with advances in tunneling, docker, and cheap prices on Ebay.

Re:AWS doesn't make sense for scientific computing by kijin on Friday October 07, 2022 @01:35PM (#33124499)
Even that depends on what you're doing. Most scientists aren't running apps that require several 9's of availability, connect to an irreplaceable customer database, etc.

An outage, or even permanent loss of hardware, might not be a big problem if you're just running computations on data of which you have multiple copies. At worst, you might have to copy a few TB of data from an external hard drive and redo a few weeks' worth of computations.

Re:AWS doesn't make sense for scientific computing by billythemaniam on Friday October 07, 2022 @02:04PM (#33124878)
The counterpoint to that point is that a significant percentage of scientific computing doesn't care about any of that. They are unlikely to have enough hardware to cause a fire and they don't care about outages or even data loss in many cases. As others have said, it depends on the specifics of the research. In the cases where that stuff matters, the cloud would be better option.
Re:AWS doesn't make sense for scientific computing by Fomite on Friday October 07, 2022 @03:21PM (#33125746)
This. If my lab-level server failed tomorrow, I'd be annoyed, order another one, and start the simulations again.
Re:AWS doesn't make sense for scientific computing by ptero on Friday October 07, 2022 @02:19PM (#33125047)
> there's a lot of risk they're not taking into account

I see it the other way: experimental scientists operate with unreliable systems all the time: fickle systems, soldered one-time setups, shared lab space, etc. Computing is just one more thing that is not 100% reliable (but way more reliable than some other equipment), and usb data sticks serve as a good enough data backup.

Re:AWS doesn't make sense for scientific computing by mangecoeur on Friday October 07, 2022 @03:37PM (#33125932)
Or your university might have it's own backup system. We have a massive central tape-based archive that you can run nightly backups to.
Re:AWS doesn't make sense for scientific computing by horsawlarway on Friday October 07, 2022 @02:27PM (#33125124)
I'd counter by saying I think you're over-estimating how valuable mitigating that risk is to this crowd.

I'd further say that you're probably over-estimating how valuable mitigating that risk is to anyone, although there are a few limited set of customers that genuinely do care.

There are few places I can think of that would benefit more by avoiding cloud costs than scientific computing...

They often have limited budgets that are driven by grants, not derived by providing online services (computer going down does not impact bottom line).

They have real computation needs that mean hardware is unlikely to sit idle.

There is no compelling reason to "scale" in the way that a company might need to in order to handle additional unexpected load from customers or hit marketing campaigns.

Basically... the only meaningful offering from the cloud is likely preventing data loss, and this can be done fairly well with a simple backup strategy.

Again - they aren't a business where losing a few hours/days of customer data is potentially business ending.

---

And to be blunt - I can make the same risk avoidance claims about a lot of things that would simply get me laughed out of the room.

"The lead researcher shouldn't be allowed in a car because it might crash!"

"The lab work must be done in a bomb shelter in case of war or tornados!"

"No one on the team can eat red meat because it increases the risk of heart attack!"

and on and on and on... Simply saying "There's risk" is not sufficient - you must still make a compelling argument that the cost of avoiding that risk is justified, and you're not doing that.

Re:AWS doesn't make sense for scientific computing by noobermin on Friday October 07, 2022 @02:42PM (#33125323)
May be consider that your use case and the average scientist's use case isn't the same? What works for you won't work for them and vise versa? What you consider a risk, I wouldn't?

Consider the following, I have never considered applying meltdown or spectre mitigations if it makes my code run slower because I plain don't care, assuming anyone even peeks at what my simulations doing, whoopdeedo, I don't care. I won't do that on my laptop I use to buy shit off amazon with, but the workstation I have control of? I don't care. I DO care if my simulation will take 10 days instead of a week.

My use case isn't yours because my needs aren't yours. Not everything maps across domains.

Re:AWS doesn't make sense for scientific computing by vjk800 on Friday October 07, 2022 @04:24PM (#33126484)
The point is, there's not need for everything to be 100% reliable in this context. If a fire destroys everything and their computational resources is unavailable for a few days, that's somewhat okay. Not ideal, but not a catastrophic loss either. Even data loss is no catastrophic - at worst it means redoing one or two weeks worth of computations.

Some sort of 80/20 principle is at works here. Most of the costs in professional cloud solutions comes from making the infrastructure 99.99% reliable instead of 99% reliable. It is totally worth it if you have millions of customers that expect a certain level of reliability, but a complete overkill if the worst case scenario from a system failure is some graduate student having to redo a few days worth of computations (which probably had to be redone several times anyway because of some bug in the code or something).

Re:AWS doesn't make sense for scientific computing by secabeen on Friday October 07, 2022 @02:47PM (#33125378)
Thankfully, only a small part of the academic research enterprise involves human subjects, HIPAA, and all that. Neither fruit flies nor quarks have privacy rights.
Re:AWS doesn't make sense for scientific computing by dmicah on Friday October 07, 2022 @02:59PM (#33125500)
Research involving human subjects (psychology, cognitive neuroscience, behavioral economics, etc.) requires institutional review board approval and informed consent, etc. but mostly doesn't involve HIPAA either.
Re:AWS doesn't make sense for scientific computing by Fomite on Friday October 07, 2022 @03:23PM (#33125771)
And many, many institutions are over cautious. My own university, for example, has no data classification between "It would be totally okay if anyone in the university has access" and "Regulated data", so "I mean, it's health information, and it's governed by our data use agreement with the provider..." gets it kicked to the same level as full-fat HIPAA data.
Re:AWS doesn't make sense for scientific computing by charcircuit on Friday October 07, 2022 @03:20PM (#33125731)
That is not a law.
Re:AWS doesn't make sense for scientific computing by icedchai on Friday October 07, 2022 @03:43PM (#33126009)
There are actually laws around such things. You can read about them here: https://www.hhs.gov/ohrp/index.html
Re:AWS doesn't make sense for scientific computing by charcircuit on Friday October 07, 2022 @08:52PM (#33128787)
That only applies to government / government sponsored research. That is different from someone doing their own research
Re:AWS doesn't make sense for scientific computing by icedchai on Friday October 07, 2022 @09:01PM (#33128835)
This is true, but to say it is "not a law", as you did, completely unqualified, is incorrect. If the research project is connected with a government grant (and many are) you need to pay attention to those laws. Many universities also have their own policies you need to follow, regardless. (Requiring informed consent and protecting people's privacy seems like a good thing.)
Re:AWS doesn't make sense for scientific computing by charcircuit on Friday October 07, 2022 @10:49PM (#33129380)
Let me repeat it another way. The law only restricts the actions of the government. Members of a university are not the government. Even if they took government money they could legally ignore all of that stuff. Worst case you will not get more funding from them in the future.
Re:AWS doesn't make sense for scientific computing by icedchai on Friday October 07, 2022 @11:06PM (#33129459)
I believe you are technically correct, but that does not change the fact that universities have IRBs and will require reviews/approval if you are connected to that institution. You really think they're going to put their funding at risk? This seems very unlikely.

I found this article: https://journals.sagepub.com/doi/10.1177/1073110520917030