Yeah I've never understood why people say that hallucinations are real, and even "more real" and the "actual reality". The very definition of a hallucination is that it's not real, it's false. What am I missing here?

There's a common way people from scientific communities (such as HN) look at the world - there's a "real world" out there, and in order to improve our understanding of things we should approximate (discover the rules that govern) this real world and try to minimize our subjective experiences as much as possible. I fully subscribe to this view, the real world has to be same for everyone, right?

But there's another way to look at things which is prevalent in other circles, and if someday you decide to learn to meditate, I'm confident you'll get it.

How do you know the "real world" exists? Maybe you're a brain inside a jar "in the machine", and all the things you experience are being generated by the machine. In that case, how is an hallucination any different from any other experience you have? It isn't, it's exactly the same, it's just another experience. How you interpret it may be different, if you realize it's an hallucination, but the process itself is the same.

When you look at a tree, you can't just see the tree, you can only see the model that your mind creates of that tree, from the light that reaches your eyes, the sound, maybe touch etc - this is true for everything you experience.

Obviously the first perspective is very useful, it's science. But the second perspective is also very very useful, if you want to know why I can elaborate : )

You may be assuming that your ("the") normal conscious experience is base reality, as opposed to simply a much more common hallucination, which is what it can be revealed to be with a relatively small amount of investigation.

Also, there is a distinction between the words that we use to conceptualize and communicate about reality, but consciousness (presumably due to evolution) tends to filter such things out.

Yeah normal consciousness is normal, of course. That's not an assumption that I make, that just a basic fact.

>> You may be assuming that your ("the") normal conscious experience is base reality

> Yeah normal consciousness is normal, of course. That's not an assumption that I make, that just a basic fact.

To me, this is fascinating: I clearly compared normal consciousness to base reality but you decided(?) to reply as if I had said "normal consciousness is normal". To me, this is an excellent demonstration of the very thing I am talking about...both the phenomenon itself, but also this part: "...which is what it can be revealed to be with a relatively small amount of investigation" - more precisely: compare how people describe (their) reality, to the objective, shared reality that is literally printed on this web page.

Unfortunately, it is child's play for the subconscious to filter this sort of thing out before it reaches the "conscious awareness" stage of the pipeline (and then it still has to contend with ego, pride, cultural norms, post-hoc rationalization, etc) which may make this local maximum extremely difficult for humanity to break out of.

Purely anecdotal, but when I took acid once in college, I became strongly aware of these patterns in the concrete outside my house, kinda of a swirly "leaf like" structure. Long after the trip had ended, I could still see that pattern, although less pronounced. I had to look a bit harder to notice it.

My theory is that the pattern was always there, it just took acid to let me really notice it for the first time. Something about the way that the concrete dries, or maybe an artifact of whatever they do to freshly poured concrete to make it grippy.

Could also be pure delusion, so, grain of salt. But I think there is something to the idea that a new / different frame of reference and attention can show you things you may otherwise not have noticed.

Dosage matters a lot. 100-200μg of LSD doesn't do much for me, but 400-500μg is just right for a profound experience. YMMV.

Didn't the scientist discoving it take a "small" amount which is like 10x that much? I always find that story funny for some reason. In this day no scientist is just like "let me try a few mgs of this thing I created" lol

This is some absolutely wrong dosage, please don't ever take actual 400ug doses unless you really know what you're doing. Most tabs sold as 200ug are in the 30-80ug range, so people tend to severely overestimate the dosage.

I absolutely agree that non-experienced users should start off with low doses, no more than 100μg. I am very experienced with psychedelics and knew what I was getting into when I took higher amounts. My point was simply that low doses may not result in "life changing experiences", for some to experience that (such as myself) higher doses may be required.

out of curiosity, how old were you?

becuase I've been wondering recently what would have happened if I only tried hallucinogenics for the first time now that my brain is much older?

I was around 25 for both. Is that considered "late/older"?

That's an interesting idea.

I would consider it older... it comes down to how quickly does each individual grows up. I think the wisdom teeth are a good paremeter to gauge/compare many individuals together.

people's brains, specifically male brains get to full adulthood around 22-25; iirc women get there a couple of years earlier.

My experience may be of interest to you.

I first used LSD around 15-16. It was fun in that novel kind of way. Not life-changing.

Around a year later I moved to a new place where LSD was much more accessible and much cheaper. Myself and some new friends started using it frequently (i.e. every 2-3 weeks). I was also smoking pot regularly at the time. Some months later I had become complacent and we decided to go into the city centre on a busy Friday night while under the influence. I had a very bad time. Bad set and setting as they say. Strong paranoia set in - not unlike a lot of people would be familiar with through smoking pot, just much more intense.

That bad trip stuck with me. It really was life-changing. I developed strong anxiety, especially in social situations. It was as though, during that trip, my brain had learned some new associations and they persisted.

I have a large extended family that includes some with bipolar disorder and one schizophrenic. Knowing this, I was privately very concerned for myself. It took me roughly five years to learn to overcome that anxiety (no drugs or counseling, largely just self reflection). As with most things in life, I don't regret it as it is a part of what made me the person I am today. I know that I missed a lot of opportunities during those years, but I appreciate that I understand myself in a way that I otherwise might not have. I actually feel that I have come out psychologically stronger - able to recognise what is triggering certain feelings and having simple strategies for dealing with them (or even avoiding them in the first place).

Part of that whole process was learning that pot wasn't for me (fun as it was initially). Today I don't actually enjoy it at all.

Surprisingly, I do occasionally use psychedelics these days. I feel very safe doing so and I put this down to the hard work I put in following that initial bad trip 20+ years ago.

What I get out of psychedelics now (largely psilocybin and occasionally LSD) is very different from what I was looking for when I was young. I don't seek out an experience with strong hallucinations in general. I'm there for the psychological insight. I relish the opportunity it allows me for 'objective' self reflection. I know of no other way to be as honest with myself about my self. I get real insights that I later reflect on and that really help me get the most out of my meditation practice.

There's a question that you might have come across sometime. "When did you realise that you were the arsehole?" When I first saw that, I didn't give it much thought. Now I do. It's just part of the development of the self. I now welcome those moments where I catch myself being selfish, or reflexively and narcissistically defending the (always) inadequate conception I have of my self.

Psychedelics for me are a useful tool for honest introspection. Sometimes it can be exquisitely uncomfortable and you need to be prepared for that but I find it invaluable. Psilocybin seems to be better for this than LSD. It is the only drug I have ever experienced that leaves me feeling noticeably better the following day (I have similar thoughts when using LSD, but somehow it leaves my brain feeling a bit 'frazzled').

TLDR; When younger I chased strong 'fun' hallucinations using psychedelics and paid a price that taught me an important lesson. Today I use them for self reflection and the way they (ironically) help me to maintain and conceive of a more realistic self.

I guess it doesn't work on/for everyone?

I have had extremely realistic hallucinations mostly from side/withdrawal effects, but they were not "life changing".