News for hackers. Stuff that matters.
Re:230K Chinese “persuaded to return” from abroad to establi... by walterbell on Saturday October 01, 2022 @06:48PM (#33050891)
Westphalian nation states were established to supercede private armies of mercenaries. If societies now accept extra-legal methods of influence, as vividly illustrated on TV shows like The Sopranos, there will be many organized non-state actors lining up to join the party.

If citizens want a new legal category for extra-territorial operations, beyond extradition, this can be negotiated in a formal international treaty.

Re:230K Chinese “persuaded to return” from abroad to establi... by dendriti on Saturday October 01, 2022 @08:15PM (#33051424)
The fact that you think a "formal international treaty" means anything, tells us that you're not ready.

States will do whatever states CAN do. Treaties mean nothing by themselves, especially in this context.

(side note: nearly all treaties are both formal and international by default)

Re:230K Chinese “persuaded to return” from abroad to establi... by walterbell on Saturday October 01, 2022 @08:39PM (#33051572)
> States will do whatever states CAN do.

Of course. But there's a big difference between doing covertly and doing in daylight with an office.

Should foreign countries open US "Corporate Intellectual Property Donation" physical offices?

Treaties set a floor on behavior. For those who claim laws don't matter, remember that contracts and all global supply chains are based on laws of trade and finance. No law = no economy = war until agreement and law is re-established.

Re:230K Chinese “persuaded to return” from abroad to establi... by tsimionescu on Saturday October 01, 2022 @11:52PM (#33052658)
Treaties and international law in general are only relevant for weak states. Powerful states ignore any negative decision against them - especially the most powerful.

This is even official in some cases. For example, the USA does not recognize any authority of the the International Criminal Court (neither do China, Russia and a number of other big states), but that doesn't stop them from occasionally using it against smaller nations.

You can look for a long time, but you'll never find an example of a superpower/empire, or a close ally of one, submitting to any kind of international judgment against it, criminal or in a trade dispute. At most, they may accept a negative ruling to a case they brought against someone else.

Re:230K Chinese “persuaded to return” from abroad to establi... by dragonwriter on Sunday October 02, 2022 @12:56AM (#33052992)
> For example, the USA does not recognize any authority of the the International Criminal Court

This is not true. The USA is not a party to the Rome Statute and asserts that the conditions which would otherwise subject its citizens to ICC jurisdiction categorically do not exist, and has authorized unlimited measures should the ICC disagree with the last point, but does not dispute the authority of the ICC.

> You can look for a long time, but you’ll never find an example of a superpower/empire, or a close ally of one, submitting to any kind of international judgment against it, criminal or in a trade dispute.

Well, states are not subjects of criminal law, so the criminal part is trivially true. As for trade disputes, the US has complied with numerous adverse decisions in WTO proceedings.

Re:230K Chinese “persuaded to return” from abroad to establi... by bluesign on Sunday October 02, 2022 @05:17AM (#33054334)
You both are saying the same thing, according to US; ICC has no authority over US, but on other countries.
Re:230K Chinese “persuaded to return” from abroad to establi... by tristor on Sunday October 02, 2022 @10:08AM (#33055981)
No, they’re not. The ICC has no authority over ANY state, it has authority over people who are citizens of many states, but not citizens of the US, because the US has a functioning justice system that responds to the things the ICC is focused on. Because of this, there is no need to indict a US citizen in the ICC, you can do it in the US justice system, which is why the US points out that their citizens do not need to be subjected to the ICC.
Re:230K Chinese “persuaded to return” from abroad to establi... by dragonwriter on Sunday October 02, 2022 @10:44AM (#33056263)
> because the US has a functioning justice system that responds to the things the ICC is focused on.

Well, that’s the position of US law.

There are certainly cases one might point to and make the argument that the US domestic system does not always effectively deal with US war crimes and the crime of aggression.

Re:230K Chinese “persuaded to return” from abroad to establi... by tristor on Sunday October 02, 2022 @11:48AM (#33056968)
Aggression is not criminal. There are times when the US has had soldiers commit war crimes, and it’s debatable how effective the US has been at prosecuting such things historically, but it does make a realistic attempt to do so.

Please let me know when we find mass graves of women and children defiled and murdered by US soldiers, which is unfortunately common behavior for the militaries of many other states, which the ICC has been involved in prosecuting.

Re:230K Chinese “persuaded to return” from abroad to establi... by dragonwriter on Sunday October 02, 2022 @02:15PM (#33058637)
> Aggression is not criminal

The crime of aggression (aka crime against peace) is, like war crimes and crimes against humanity, a widely recognized crime, prosecuted in the various peri-/post-WWII tribunals, though it took a while for the ICC to settle on its operationalization.

> There are times when the US has had soldiers commit war crimes, and it’s debatable how effective the US has been at prosecuting such things historically, but it does make a realistic attempt to do so.

The standard for ICC jurisdiction isn’t general adequacy, it is specific good faith action in the particular case.

Re:230K Chinese “persuaded to return” from abroad to establi... by tsimionescu on Sunday October 02, 2022 @04:27PM (#33059885)
The ICC is not the only international tribunal who's authority the USA doesn't recognize on its own citizens/self. There's also the ICJ, which has found the USA guilty of war crimes and ordered it to pay restitution at least once, for having mined Nicaragua's harbors, which the US very explicitly and publically refused to recognize.

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nicaragua_v._United_States

Re:230K Chinese “persuaded to return” from abroad to establi... by walterbell on Sunday October 02, 2022 @12:34AM (#33052884)
> You can look for a long time, but you'll never find an example of a superpower/empire, or a close ally of one, submitting to any kind of international judgment against it, criminal or in a trade dispute. At most, they may accept a negative ruling to a case they brought against someone else.

Since 2020, China's Huawei has been subject to semiconductor supply chain restrictions which have been enforced by multiple countries. This has materially impacted Huawei consumer smartphone revenues.

But in the long term, such restrictions are likely to accelerate technical self-sufficiency, https://www.theregister.com/2022/07/22/china_smic_7nm_chips/

Re:230K Chinese “persuaded to return” from abroad to establi... by tsimionescu on Sunday October 02, 2022 @06:34AM (#33054710)
They are enforced by other countries - it wasn't the Chinese themselves who decided to stop doing something because an international court said so - that is my point. This would be equivalent to a court imposing a fine on you, and your neighbors taking your things in the amount of the fine (instead of the state taking it, or you going to pay).
Re:230K Chinese “persuaded to return” from abroad to establi... by walterbell on Sunday October 02, 2022 @07:19AM (#33054930)
Self vs. other enforcement is less important than consequences, which are the same in both situations. If a country has the opportunity to negotiate the terms of trade, that is clearly preferable to terms being imposed unilaterally by others.

Yes, countries can break agreements, but good agreements provide benefits to all parties, such that breaking an agreement results in reciprocal loss of benefits. There are always edge cases, but by definition, not everything is an edge case and there are countless routine, negotiated agreements which benefit everyone and are happily followed.

Re:230K Chinese “persuaded to return” from abroad to establi... by im3w1l on Saturday October 01, 2022 @06:57PM (#33050960)
What would "not-accepting" these methods of influence even look like?
Re:230K Chinese “persuaded to return” from abroad to establi... by walterbell on Saturday October 01, 2022 @07:03PM (#33050995)
Step 1: picket/protest and close the overt "police stations". Any would-be kidnappers can run a covert operation like countries have done since time immemorial, at the risk of unscheduled encounters with local city, state and federal authorities. Or they can work through the legal extradition system.

If this is allowed to stand after global public disclosure, it can be taken as implicit "consent" having been granted by citizens and their elected representatives, which means the next phase of extra-territorial activity (e.g. new laws on 1st December 2022) will push boundaries even further.

If some countries want to sell their territorial integrity and citizen safety down the proverbial river, at least they can negotiate a good price, e.g. bounty per head, prisoner exchange, or reciprocal global kidnapping by <foreign-country> of <host-country> targets. Good luck recruiting nomadic tech talent after opening such Dantean doors.