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Re:Why read Dostoevsky? A programmer's perspective by dotsam on Saturday October 01, 2022 @07:50AM (#33045891)
> Some deep truths about human nature require instead the reflection provoked by the classics.

Yes, read Dostoevsky and the classics. There is so much to learn and to enjoy.

But remember that great authors didn't discover deep truths of human nature from books alone, but from their attention to the experiences of real life.

“When we read, another person thinks for us: we merely repeat his mental process. In learning to write, the pupil goes over with his pen what the teacher has outlined in pencil: so in reading; the greater part of the work of thought is already done for us. This is why it relieves us to take up a book after being occupied with our own thoughts. And in reading, the mind is, in fact, only the playground of another’s thoughts. So it comes about that if anyone spends almost the whole day in reading, and by way of relaxation devotes the intervals to some thoughtless pastime, he gradually loses the capacity for thinking; just as the man who always rides, at last forgets how to walk. This is the case with many learned persons: they have read themselves stupid.” - Arthur Schopenhauer

Re:Why read Dostoevsky? A programmer's perspective by svat on Saturday October 01, 2022 @10:30AM (#33046817)
Similar thought from Albert Einstein (1930):

> ”Much reading after a certain age diverts the mind from its creative pursuits. Any man who reads too much and uses his own brain too little falls into lazy habits of thinking, just as the man who spends too much time in the theaters is apt to be content with living vicariously instead of living his own life.”

Re:Why read Dostoevsky? A programmer's perspective by tehchromic on Saturday October 01, 2022 @12:07PM (#33047607)
I love this. I always wonder why I have almost no interest in novels now although I spent my entire youth buried in them. Occasionally I feel guilty. But I think life became the novel?
Re:Why read Dostoevsky? A programmer's perspective by enviclash on Saturday October 01, 2022 @05:22PM (#33050234)
"life became the novel"... Sounds beautiful but idealistic. Surely risk perception plays a role in the difference.
Re:Why read Dostoevsky? A programmer's perspective by tehchromic on Saturday October 01, 2022 @07:13PM (#33051056)
Risk perception. Clarify?
Re:Why read Dostoevsky? A programmer's perspective by tehchromic on Saturday October 01, 2022 @07:15PM (#33051073)
Ah, gotcha. Yes my risk assessment was prehensile.
Re:Why read Dostoevsky? A programmer's perspective by enviclash on Sunday October 02, 2022 @04:59AM (#33054224)
I meant that seeing the difference of risk perception between acting in real life and acting in theatre could be crucial on the point discussed.
Re:Why read Dostoevsky? A programmer's perspective by Silverback_VII on Saturday October 01, 2022 @10:50AM (#33047007)
Whenever I read something about Einstein the following comes to my mind:

"The people told me, however, that the big ear was not only a man, but a great man, a genius. But I never believed in the people when they spake of great men - and I hold to my belief that it was a reversed cripple, who had too little of everything, and too much of one thing."

Re:Why read Dostoevsky? A programmer's perspective by fluoridation on Saturday October 01, 2022 @10:56AM (#33047064)
"What a fool I am", said the fox. "Here I am wearing myself out to get a bunch of sour grapes that are not worth gaping for."
Re:Why read Dostoevsky? A programmer's perspective by dotsam on Saturday October 01, 2022 @03:03PM (#33049066)
Very strong echo of Schopenhauer here. Einstein was a big fan, and even had Schopenhauer’s portrait on his office wall.

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Religious_and_philosophical_...

Re:Why read Dostoevsky? A programmer's perspective by montefischer on Saturday October 01, 2022 @11:42AM (#33047408)
My favorite passage from that essay:

> From all this it may be concluded that thoughts put down on paper are nothing more than footprints in the sand: one sees the road the man has taken, but in order to know what he saw on the way, one requires his eyes.

Re:Why read Dostoevsky? A programmer's perspective by Silverback_VII on Saturday October 01, 2022 @09:03AM (#33046294)
What if the deep truths about the human nature are in fact very shallow?

I can imagine that all human deepness is, not unlike the very sofisticated feathers of the peacock, just a tool to increase status & SMV.

Re:Why read Dostoevsky? A programmer's perspective by theonemind on Saturday October 01, 2022 @04:55PM (#33050024)
How would you explain homosexuality with this model? Historically, it has actually cost in terms of status, certainly doesn't confer reproductive fitness on the individual, and sorely restricts the individual's sexual market.

It falls apart rather quickly without the tell-tale signs of a tortured model, like modelling our solar system as the motion of circles because you won't admit the ellipse. You can do it, but you probably just need a better model.

For starters, the over-focus on the individual misses competition at level above and below, genes and groups. Secondly, it glosses over emergent phenomena too glibly. If you try to model a presidential election in terms of quantum physics and general relativity, you won't get very far. I can even point out an emergent phenomenon that radically changes this calculus, the human frontal lobes. Unlike most animals, we can suppress our immediate reactions and get mental time and distance from the world, to remap our motivations and act in ways completely absurd from the point of status and sexual market value, like suicide bombings. Status and sexual market value drop to dead zero. You can try to tie it back to status and sexual market value, passing through the activity of the frontal lobes, which would only prove my point about emergent phenomena and a tortured model.

"For every complex problem there is an answer that is clear, simple, and wrong." - H. L. Mencken

Re:Why read Dostoevsky? A programmer's perspective by cowuser666 on Saturday October 01, 2022 @09:52AM (#33046586)
And language is just a tool to hunt better and coordinate distribution of berries. And human consciousness is just a tool to model other minds to negotiate better. Nothing to see here.
Re:Why read Dostoevsky? A programmer's perspective by Kevcmk on Saturday October 01, 2022 @10:24AM (#33046767)
Cynicism is both cheap and lazy. You two sound miserable
Re:Why read Dostoevsky? A programmer's perspective by cowuser666 on Saturday October 01, 2022 @10:32AM (#33046836)
Worldviews don't win points for being expensive and industrious. But my point, had you seen past your mood affiliation, was that explaining the origin of a phenomenon doesn't tell you its value.
Re:Why read Dostoevsky? A programmer's perspective by molly0 on Saturday October 01, 2022 @01:12PM (#33048152)
Good point.
Re:Why read Dostoevsky? A programmer's perspective by polio on Saturday October 01, 2022 @04:02PM (#33049545)
There are plenty of people who still lead complex lives after they are effectively out of said market.
Re:Why read Dostoevsky? A programmer's perspective by Silverback_VII on Saturday October 01, 2022 @04:34PM (#33049851)
Some people certainly think that they are out of the market but their organism may have a different opinion.

People who are truly out of the market like postmenopausal women often feel a lack of motivation and their physical activity measurably decreases.

Re:Why read Dostoevsky? A programmer's perspective by starkd on Saturday October 01, 2022 @11:56AM (#33047524)
Neil Postman came to much the same conclusion about modern entertainment.

https://www.amazon.com/Amusing-Ourselves-Death-Discourse-Bus...

Re:Why read Dostoevsky? A programmer's perspective by diffxx on Saturday October 01, 2022 @02:13PM (#33048641)
That's not what I took away from the book. He mentions his own personal enjoyment of trashy television multiple times. His concern was that he believed that democracy is fundamentally incompatible with a media landscape dominated by television (s/televison/social media in 2022).
Re:Why read Dostoevsky? A programmer's perspective by montefischer on Saturday October 01, 2022 @03:20PM (#33049219)
In fact, Postman went to great lengths to detail the ways in which "print culture" (including books, newspapers, and even public oration) with its great commitment to complex argumentation shaped society in ways consonant with the sustaining of a democratic republic, while warning that the modern replacement of this older culture was perhaps not so well suited to maintaining a self-governing people.

(edit) Social media / the internet more generally enables 2-way communication in a way that was not possible in either print nor TV culture. Conceptually it lowers barriers to entry to near-zero for communicating one's ideas & learning from others. Earlier forms depended much more heavily on gatekeepers. Is a more nominally democratic form of media culture than this even possible?

Re:Why read Dostoevsky? A programmer's perspective by its_bbq on Saturday October 01, 2022 @10:47AM (#33046976)
A quote that's impossible to read without some irony
Re:Why read Dostoevsky? A programmer's perspective by grog454 on Saturday October 01, 2022 @10:44PM (#33052333)
> "When we read, another person thinks for us: we merely repeat his mental process."

Doesn't this depend a lot on what and how we're reading? I put a lot more thought into some passages from a book than a Stack Overflow code snippet. HN posts fall somewhere in between, and sometimes even those can permanently reshape how I think about something.

Re:Why read Dostoevsky? A programmer's perspective by BolexNOLA on Saturday October 01, 2022 @08:45AM (#33046193)
I feel like there’s a lot to be gleaned here, but all I can focus on is how this - especially the last line - could be easily misrepresented to spread an anti-education message.
Re:Why read Dostoevsky? A programmer's perspective by cowuser666 on Saturday October 01, 2022 @09:59AM (#33046626)
This treats arguments like opaque tokens where we know in advance which are good and bad, and need to make sure we have lots of good and few bad. But actually arguments have content and to know whether they are good or bad, we have to engage with them.
Re:Why read Dostoevsky? A programmer's perspective by BolexNOLA on Saturday October 01, 2022 @10:04AM (#33046652)
I’m going to be perfectly honest, I have no idea what you mean in this context/what you’re saying to me once I get past the first comma.
Re:Why read Dostoevsky? A programmer's perspective by cowuser666 on Saturday October 01, 2022 @10:26AM (#33046791)
I'm saying you're not engaging with the substance of his point.

If I were to say, "America had a negative impact in geopolitics when it invaded Iraq," it's like you responded with "I'm sorry, but that just seems anti-American."

Re:Why read Dostoevsky? A programmer's perspective by 9dev on Saturday October 01, 2022 @11:50AM (#33047478)
Just wanted to say that this was an excellent example to illustrate your case.
Re:Why read Dostoevsky? A programmer's perspective by BolexNOLA on Saturday October 01, 2022 @11:47AM (#33047445)
I don’t think that’s a particularly fair or accurate assessment of what I said.
Re:Why read Dostoevsky? A programmer's perspective by psychomugs on Saturday October 01, 2022 @09:26AM (#33046443)
You could say similar of any technology, as they all extend and amputate ourselves in some way. I read the Schopenhauer line as a sentiment against technosolutionism; technology like books are fine in moderation, but they are not replacements for the reality of lived experience.

See Marshall McLuhan and Neil Postman for better arguments.

Re:Why read Dostoevsky? A programmer's perspective by oldsklgdfth on Saturday October 01, 2022 @09:45AM (#33046550)
Came here to mention those two.

It’s a subtle message. Technology giveth and technology taketh. Use of any technology is a trade off.

Re:Why read Dostoevsky? A programmer's perspective by BolexNOLA on Saturday October 01, 2022 @10:06AM (#33046659)
I definitely see that interpretation and it’s how I would take it personally, I’m just kind of musing.
Re:Why read Dostoevsky? A programmer's perspective by jorvi on Saturday October 01, 2022 @09:24AM (#33046428)
To me it reads like anti-consumerism.

If you only consume and don’t create, your mind gradually loses its capacity for creativity [and you will eventually have to reacquire it, the same way a comatose patient needs to relearn walking].

Re:Why read Dostoevsky? A programmer's perspective by mmmpop on Saturday October 01, 2022 @10:34AM (#33046854)
> an anti-education message

But since when is all reading "education"? I see a lot of people reading a lot of trash and could be spending their time reading Dostoevsky, or better yet plotting their own murder + burglaries !

Re:Why read Dostoevsky? A programmer's perspective by BolexNOLA on Sunday October 02, 2022 @12:53PM (#33057723)
That’s not really what I said nor do I disagree.