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Re:Gas Leak in the Baltic Sea by smsm42 on Tuesday September 27, 2022 @04:37PM (#33000801)
> they've been wanting to get that pipeline approved and operational

Not recently. Recently, they pulled out a string of excuses to send less and less gas over (turbine bing repaired, sanctions, etc.) to show Europe their leverage. They don't feel any lack of money currently, and they know with current hydrocarbon prices, they have options to sell, even if at discount, and no money shortages currently. So they're betting on European population being weak and European energy infrastructure being dependent on Russian hydrocarbons, and thus citizens pushing the politicians to make nice with Russia.

The fact that they invested a lot of money in it means nothing. They have money. They have oil and gas that they can sell for money. What they need is for the West not to send so much weapons and ammunition to Ukraine that Russian army, numerous but weak and disorganized, will be completely crushed and expelled from Ukraine. Cutting off the flow directly would expose them to contractual sanctions, which can be leveraged against assets Russia still has in the West. But cutting off the flow by "mysterious explosion" reaches the same goal while providing Russians with tiny veiled plausible deniability. That's how they always operate. I'm sure in 5 years or so they'd admit it openly. Just as they admitted that "insurgents" in East Ukraine and Crimea were actually Russian military and intelligence officers, or Putin's private military "Wagner Group" exists, was created by a close Putin ally - which they were denying for years - and is operating in Ukraine.

Re:Gas Leak in the Baltic Sea by cdash on Tuesday September 27, 2022 @06:05PM (#33001716)
They stopped sending gas over on Nord Stream 1 with the excuse of maintenance and repairs specifically as leverage for Germany to sign off on opening their brand new pipeline Nord Stream 2 for business.

Now, both pipelines have been blown up. It doesn't make any sense for it to have been Russia.

Re:Gas Leak in the Baltic Sea by smsm42 on Tuesday September 27, 2022 @06:22PM (#33001906)
Why not? If it is stopped by the Russian order, Russians violated the contract. If it is stopped because unknown terrorists blew up the pipeline, it's force majeure, Gazprom is in the clear.

Also, they have one more pipeline left. Which they are also threatening to - guess what? - shut down.

https://www-moscowtimes-ru.translate.goog/2022/09/27/gazprom...

Doesn't make sense for it to be Russia? Or does it now?

Re:Gas Leak in the Baltic Sea by dividedbyzero on Tuesday September 27, 2022 @07:02PM (#33002235)
Still doesn't make sense. NS2 was held offline by Germany and could easily have had technical difficulties as well if that were to change. NS1 could have been left offline pretty much indefinitely without serious attempts at such contractual plays, because this sort of thing would of course have ended any chance of future Russian deliveries. Besides, there isn't much left that sanctions don't already target.

However, them being destroyed for now will take a lot of pressure to appease Russia out of German domestic politics, lots of political figures were gearing up for trench warfare on opening NS2, and Russia could have used NS1 as a bargaining chip to get Germany to desert Ukraine. There's good reason to suspect the German electorate might have been quite open to such an arrangement by late winter, and imagine what that would have done to western unity. Why throw away such leverage, especially as you can still blow them up later?

This also takes any plan B involving Russia off the table entirely, meaning that Germany will absolutely have to double down on LNG and renewables and restructure its industry, with obvious consequences for future business opportunities.

Re:Gas Leak in the Baltic Sea by smsm42 on Wednesday September 28, 2022 @12:05AM (#33004131)
> Besides, there isn't much left that sanctions don't already target.

Frozen Russian assets, AFAIK, for now remain frozen. They could be un-frozen and directed to other owners. There's pretty much zero political risk towards Russia - nobody cares what they think anymore - but there's a problem that the Western legal system isn't really happy with just taking somebody's property because you hate them, and establishing such precedent might not be politically good. But if you have some good reason - e.g. voluntary violation of contracts - then it's different business.

> as a bargaining chip to get Germany to desert Ukraine

Germany didn't really "sert" Ukraine that much. They just recently declared they won't - on the 8th month of war, when Russia is mobilizing its reserves - give Ukraine any tanks because it's too hard for Ukrainians to operate them and it'd take too long to teach them. I mean, they are giving some things, but way below their capabilities and try to slow-walk it a lot. Of course, they could stop completely, but that'd probably be political suicide for whoever is in control. "Work as much as you have to not be fired, but not even a little more" is the strategy here. Would it be ever non-suicidal for German government to openly cave to Russians (with the full knowledge that from now on and forever, they are Russia's bitch)? I don't think so.

> Germany will absolutely have to double down on LNG and renewables and restructure its industry,

They really don't have much choice here, if they're not going the "Russia's bitch" road. The war is not really done, and it's not going well for Putin, so he'll squeeze anything that can be squeezed. He's cashing in (did I mention the mobilization?). There's no long term soft influence plan anymore - there's the fire sale plan now. If Germany does not capitulate - and I don't think Germans are inclined to - Russia will squeeze them and they'd have to find the alternative.

Re:Gas Leak in the Baltic Sea by XorNot on Tuesday September 27, 2022 @08:58PM (#33003106)
Stop thinking that Russia is doing what's good for Russia. Because it's not what's happening: Putin is ordering Russia, to do whats either good for Putin, or just what Putin wants.

And what's good for Putin right now is not having an easy source of income for someone to distribute to his keys to power in exchange for supporting a coup (plus side-benefits like all the people leaping to blame the US).

Re:Gas Leak in the Baltic Sea by jessaustin on Tuesday September 27, 2022 @11:58PM (#33004087)
This is a common sentiment ITT. Where is this sophisticated critical analysis whenever we discuss the actions of e.g. USA?
Re:Gas Leak in the Baltic Sea by foverzar on Wednesday September 28, 2022 @06:23AM (#33006388)
> Why not?

Because they had spend years and huge monetary investments to build it.

That would be one insanely expensive spectacle.

Re:Gas Leak in the Baltic Sea by daniel-cussen on Wednesday September 28, 2022 @06:40AM (#33006484)
America would blow up oil pipelines in Chile when it was getting dangerously close to Democracy, Allende said so in his final address. Plus it's business.

Qui bono?

Re:Gas Leak in the Baltic Sea by mlyle on Tuesday September 27, 2022 @08:02PM (#33002742)
3/4 of the pipeline is taken offline.

NS2 still has an intact set of pipe and can operate-- if the West falls on its sword and allows NS2 to open.

And a clear statement of capability has been made: whomever has done this can also target pipelines in the North Sea that provide Europe's remaining gas.

Also, if someone is thinking of succeeding Putin, this step makes it hard to think one can walk back to the status quo (especially if the last NS2 parallel segment is rigged to blow).

Re:Gas Leak in the Baltic Sea by thiagoharry on Tuesday September 27, 2022 @05:43PM (#33001522)
This makes no sense. Without the gas, Russia loses leverage and there would be no dependence of Russian hydrocarbons. Germany always could buy more expensive gas from Ukraine and USA, and now they have no other choice.
Re:Gas Leak in the Baltic Sea by ordu on Tuesday September 27, 2022 @08:25PM (#33002897)
The whole war makes no sense. Putin had lost his senses.

1. Putin seriously cite Dugin[1]. Putin acts like he believes this bullshit.

2. There was a lot of people who on different occasions told "Putin wouldn't do that, it would make no sense", so then Putin could prove them wrong later by doing it. This war is one of examples of that kind. Or MH17: why to hit a plane with a missile? There was no sense in it. But it just happened. Why to massacre people in Bucha? It makes no sense.

So, when you talk about Russia the argument "makes no sense" doesn't mean anything. If it made no sense in an alternate reality were Putin resides, then it might be an interesting argument. But in his alternate reality it makes perfect sense to stop selling gas to EU.

[1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Aleksandr_Dugin

Re:Gas Leak in the Baltic Sea by phire on Wednesday September 28, 2022 @12:09AM (#33004157)
It makes sense to stop selling gas to the EU, but Russia already did that weeks ago.

What makes little sense is then blowing up the pipeline. Russia were already not selling gas, why would they take the extra step of blowing up the pipeline? That removes it as possible leverage for future negotiations.

And if you have the capability to blow up pipelines, why not blow up all the other pipelines transporting gas from Scandinavia to the rest of the EU? Make Nordstream the only option.

It actually makes more sense for Germany or one of their allies to have blown up Nordstream, to remove the temptation to for Germany to open it back up in the middle of winter when they are suffering massive gas shortages.

Re:Gas Leak in the Baltic Sea by ordu on Wednesday September 28, 2022 @01:29AM (#33004544)
My experience of such discussions hints that they lead nowhere. It is a classical mystery. It is impossible to solve without additional information. But if we need to guess based on our current knowledge, then Putin is the best bet: he is a liar, he disrespect all the rules, he likes sudden unexpected moves, he likes to act undercover. I know no other entity that can have reasons to blow up pipelines who matches better.
Re:Gas Leak in the Baltic Sea by phire on Wednesday September 28, 2022 @02:12AM (#33004750)
It's certainly possible.

But Putin has been operating with good internal logic this entire time (even if the assumptions driving that logic have been flawed at points).

And I'm not really sure what logic would cause him to attack Nordstream. The two best ideas I have are:

1. He wants to remove an option of retreat for Germany. Putin things that with Nordstream inactive, Germany can wait until they get low on gas in the middle of winter before crawling back to Russia and conceding in exchange for gas. But if it's damaged, Germany kind of need to start repairing it now, and Putin can force them to concede sooner. And Putin probably feels short on time.

2. Putin is already planning for a civil war, and doesn't think he will control Nordstream during a civil war. By destroying Nordstream, it will be harder for some civil war faction to turn it back on.

Neither are great theories. At least without some extra evidence to suggest Putin is thinking along one (or both) of these lines.

Re:Gas Leak in the Baltic Sea by actionfromafar on Wednesday September 28, 2022 @09:37AM (#33007763)
3. Putin wants to remove some incentives for a palace coup - the new ruler will not have Nordstream anymore to give to Europe.
Re:Gas Leak in the Baltic Sea by MichaelCollins on Wednesday September 28, 2022 @09:51AM (#33007924)
The new ruler could give Europe a withdrawal from Ukraine instead, I don't think this meaningfully impacts the viability of a coup.
Re:Gas Leak in the Baltic Sea by phire on Wednesday September 28, 2022 @08:39PM (#33015001)
Keep in mind, that's actually the wrong question.

The correct question is: Does Putin think that people who he things might stage a coup might be taking the Nordstream pipeline into account.

We are so many levels deep with this line of thinking, it gets really hard to reason about.

Oh, and it's less about what the the new ruler might offer to Europe, but how the new ruler is planning to get funding.

Re:Gas Leak in the Baltic Sea by foverzar on Wednesday September 28, 2022 @06:30AM (#33006426)
> The whole war makes no sense

It makes all the sense. The problem is that most don't care for reality or other side's points, but would rather make assumptions based on impressions, based on propaganda narratives.

Obviously, the more the assertions are based on values and politics rather than reality, the less sense it would make.

> 1. Putin seriously cite Dugin[1]. Putin acts like he believes this bullshit.

You didn't link an actual reference, just Dugin's wikipedia page.

> Or MH17: why to hit a plane with a missile? There was no sense in it. But it just happened.

Ukraine had been conducting air strikes over that territory at that time.

Re:Gas Leak in the Baltic Sea by smsm42 on Tuesday September 27, 2022 @06:24PM (#33001925)
Pipelines can be fixed. If Germany behaves. There's always a choice. Also, there are other ways to get the gas and the oil there.
Re:Gas Leak in the Baltic Sea by foverzar on Wednesday September 28, 2022 @06:35AM (#33006453)
Can it? If the seawater had filled the pipeline, it is likely irreparable.
Re:Gas Leak in the Baltic Sea by smsm42 on Wednesday September 28, 2022 @01:36PM (#33010731)
I don't think this is the case - when pipes are installed, they are exposed to seawater, and they are segmented, and there must be a way to replace the damaged segment without having to redo the whole pipeline. It won't fill the whole pipeline even if there's a hole in it.
Re:Gas Leak in the Baltic Sea by arisAlexis on Tuesday September 27, 2022 @05:47PM (#33001549)
The only leverage left to Russia is nukes.