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Re:Five Walled Gardens: Operating systems are holding browse... by david2ndaccount on Monday September 26, 2022 @01:55PM (#32986098)
I’m not sure why browsers are treated differently than other pieces of software. Operating systems ship a bundled calculator, text editor, email software, basic rich text editing, photo viewer, pdf viewer, etc. All of these are used much more than their quality would indicate simply because they are installed by default. Should an OS be required to interview the user on install for what their preferred choice of all of these products are?
Re:Five Walled Gardens: Operating systems are holding browse... by neogodless on Monday September 26, 2022 @02:02PM (#32986190)
That's a bit of a false dichotomy don't you think?

You're looking at one extreme where the OS must hold the user's hand to get them to install alternatives. But that's not what users deserve. They just deserve to have the ability to choose to install what they want, rather than it being blocked, or deceptively hidden.

See this from the article:

> Operating systems regularly design their systems to undermine rather than facilitate consumer choice: they can make it difficult to change default settings; they can make it hard to install new browsers; they can deploy nudges and deceptive messaging to push consumers to their own products.

Re:Five Walled Gardens: Operating systems are holding browse... by vlunkr on Monday September 26, 2022 @02:02PM (#32986189)
Well, you can install a different calculator. On iOS, you can install a different "browser," but under the hood they all have to be safari.
Re:Five Walled Gardens: Operating systems are holding browse... by bskan on Monday September 26, 2022 @02:25PM (#32986433)
And the user doesn’t even notice.
Re:Five Walled Gardens: Operating systems are holding browse... by tgv on Monday September 26, 2022 @02:26PM (#32986451)
What's the problem? The only people that complain about it are some web devs and companies that would love to get their grubby data collecting hands on your device's battery and gyroscope data.
Re:Five Walled Gardens: Operating systems are holding browse... by afavour on Monday September 26, 2022 @02:32PM (#32986517)
> The only people that complain about it are some web devs and companies that would love to get their grubby data collecting hands on your device's battery and gyroscope data.

Why would allowing more browser engines have even the slightest impact on that? Those are APIs available to all native apps they have literally nothing to do with underlying browser engines.

Re:Five Walled Gardens: Operating systems are holding browse... by tgv on Tuesday September 27, 2022 @02:20AM (#32992048)
May I remark that you're not answering the question?

> Those are APIs available to all native apps they have literally nothing to do with underlying browser engines.

Except that Safari doesn't expose them while Chrome wants to (or already does), offering Google more fingerprinting capabilities. Native apps don't send data to Google, Chrome does.

Re:Five Walled Gardens: Operating systems are holding browse... by afavour on Tuesday September 27, 2022 @07:36AM (#32994013)
Safari absolutely exposes gyroscope data. Not sure where you’re getting the idea that it doesn’t.

The problem is that Apple is slow to implement useful web standards. I don’t think the battery API is all that useful either but WebRTC is incredibly useful and it took Apple years to catch up. If they had meaningful competition in the iOS browser space they’d have more incentive to try.

Re:Five Walled Gardens: Operating systems are holding browse... by altairprime on Monday September 26, 2022 @02:46PM (#32986712)
Native apps go through App Store review, and can be permanently banned for misuse for tracking purposes without express user consent.

Allowing more browser engines would require granting those engines your battery and gyroscope data in order for them to display per-site permission dialogs.

This problem is unique to browser engines and no other kind of app, as browser engines are uniquely the only kind of app that needs this sort of permissions-granting per-site passthrough.

Apple likely does not consider it interesting or relevant to their users to invest in validating the security models of third-party browser engines for their adherence to App Store standards, nor in providing a public API for third party engines to do so, and so closes off the entire problem space by refusing third-party engines altogether.

Re:Five Walled Gardens: Operating systems are holding browse... by afavour on Monday September 26, 2022 @03:04PM (#32986940)
> Allowing more browser engines would require granting those engines your battery and gyroscope data in order for them to display per-site permission dialogs.

...a process which could be reviewed as part of the App Store review process.

There isn't really any difference here. If your app reads gyroscope data App Store review will (theoretically!) make sure you're not doing anything nefarious with it. They could just as easily verify whether a browser passes data through correctly.

Re:Five Walled Gardens: Operating systems are holding browse... by altairprime on Monday September 26, 2022 @06:10PM (#32989243)
Correct: they are not doing something that is possible to do. What benefits to their users result from that choice?

(I’m aware of what drawbacks result from it, but that’s been explained to death in a thousand replies in a hundred posts about this already, so no need to derail into them here.)

Re:Five Walled Gardens: Operating systems are holding browse... by afavour on Monday September 26, 2022 @11:11PM (#32991187)
One benefit that immediately comes to mind is the ability to protect yourself against a major security flaw in Safari:

https://safarileaks.com/

Apple did issue a fix after a few weeks but with no alternative browser engines the only alternative was “don’t use the web on your iPhone”, which is absurd.

Other user benefits might include better performance, more capabilities (it took Apple years to implement WebRTC, for example) and in general more competition that might spur Safari into becoming a better browser.

Re:Five Walled Gardens: Operating systems are holding browse... by altairprime on Wednesday September 28, 2022 @03:34PM (#33012206)
The other browser engines have other security CVEs. Switching engines on the backend does not materially reduce the total attack surface for vulnerabilities for any given everyday user. Using security vulnerabilities as a primary condition of existence also leads to the introduction of engine oversight, review, and adamant “update or be removed” policy enforcement upon third parties, all of which who will complain endlessly in the press about the draconian App Store policies they would be subject to. I expect a better case will need to be made to convince Apple.
Re:Five Walled Gardens: Operating systems are holding browse... by afavour on Thursday September 29, 2022 @11:08AM (#33021774)
You asked:

> What benefits to their users result from that choice?

But now we've gotten to

> I expect a better case will need to be made to convince Apple

Those aren't nearly the same things. Of course it's difficult to convince Apple, it isn't in their interests.

Re:Five Walled Gardens: Operating systems are holding browse... by altairprime on Thursday September 29, 2022 @02:23PM (#33025027)
You make the case that it’s to the benefit of their users to allow multiple browser engines. I am personally not convinced by your case, for the reasons stated above. I do not expect Apple to be convinced by your case either.

You may choose here to strengthen your argument, but your declaration that it’s hopeless to do so is of no help in that regard. If you wish to continue, I’m willing to listen.

Re:Five Walled Gardens: Operating systems are holding browse... by Beached on Monday September 26, 2022 @02:32PM (#32986524)
I complain about it as a user, and I take my money to android (reluctantly) as a result. I would love to run apple hardware for my phone, but their over the top control over the whole closed wall ecosystem is why I don't.
Re:Five Walled Gardens: Operating systems are holding browse... by tgv on Tuesday September 27, 2022 @02:21AM (#32992052)
Good for you, but it doesn't tell me why allowing only a single HTML rendering engine on iOS is a problem.
Re:Five Walled Gardens: Operating systems are holding browse... by magicalist on Monday September 26, 2022 @02:31PM (#32986515)
> What's the problem?

If you're not asking rhetorically, that's one of the primary subjects of this report.

Re:Five Walled Gardens: Operating systems are holding browse... by tgv on Tuesday September 27, 2022 @02:31AM (#32992102)
I've read the first 25 pages or so, and the question is not answered there.

One takeaway that is important, IMO, is this one:

> Without browser diversity, a single company’s influence can shape the internet.

That would be a problem if iOS accounts for a large majority of all http traffic. That, however, is not the case. If there's one platform that accounts for the large majority of http traffic, it is Chrome. It's estimated market share is 65%. Its derivates take 10% more.

Allowing Chrome on iOS will slowly but surely obliterate Safari. Firefox' market share is a joke to begin with (and I say this as a lifelong Firefox user; I even use Firefox on iOS). Browser diversity ends when Chrome arrives on iOS, and it would end the limited privacy we have on iOS, unless Apple would really tighten the rules.

Re:Five Walled Gardens: Operating systems are holding browse... by smoldesu on Monday September 26, 2022 @02:07PM (#32986255)
This is a good example. If Apple treated their bundled calculators, text editors, email software, photo viewers and PDF viewers like they treated their browser, nobody would use MacOS.
Re:Five Walled Gardens: Operating systems are holding browse... by pwinnski on Monday September 26, 2022 @02:14PM (#32986316)
One of us is clearly confused. As far as I can tell, Apple does treat those bundled apps on MacOS exactly as they treat Safari. Any can be replaced, but all are good enough that most people don't bother. The most likely to be replaced is probably Safari (with Chrome).

Are you perhaps thinking of iOS?

Or are you trying to make some point I'm missing?

Re:Five Walled Gardens: Operating systems are holding browse... by smoldesu on Monday September 26, 2022 @02:16PM (#32986342)
The point I'm making is that if they treated their professionals the same way they treat iOS users, their professionals would no longer work with them.
Re:Five Walled Gardens: Operating systems are holding browse... by adolph on Monday September 26, 2022 @02:24PM (#32986428)
> if they treated their professionals the same way they treat iOS users

They seem to treat "professionals" and "users" the same in iOS. Maybe there is a counterfactual world where Apple does even better by treating "professionals" differently? If anything people, "professionals" or not, have long pulled iOS into enterprise contexts despite lagging and lackluster IT management support and Apple coop with corp IT.

Re:Five Walled Gardens: Operating systems are holding browse... by Beached on Monday September 26, 2022 @02:36PM (#32986566)
he means if apple did the same garbo on osx, people would leave.

if you couldn't install cs suite or final cut or whatever, because apple comes with its own default stuff, no one would use osx.

I can't install my own browsers, my own antivirus, my own file explorer, my own shell, or my own applications in iOS as I see fit. but they do allow this on osx.

Re:Five Walled Gardens: Operating systems are holding browse... by adolph on Monday September 26, 2022 @06:06PM (#32989199)
That if/then is a counterfactual that deserves thought. I'm sure someone in Cupertino is tasked with measuring out the win/loss if MacOS goes full iOS. I wouldn't like that MacOS either, but that isn't relevant to a good decision.

  Pro:
  1. MS Office is basically completely a web app now. No binary install needed. iOS binaries are already present and optimized.
  2. Adobe subscription software is not far behind and iOS versions are present.
  3. Antivirus what? in the iOS model.
  NB. You can install your own iOS shell (if it connects to something other than localhost).

  Con:
  1. Apple has a relatively small business selling FCP etc. 
  2. Apple has a larger business/ecosystem selling App Store shovels/lotto tickets that need dev environments.
  3. Apple's high end use is a halo for lower end Mac sales. If restrictions cripple high end use and they lose the halo, then the aspirational crowd goes.
Re:Five Walled Gardens: Operating systems are holding browse... by pwinnski on Monday September 26, 2022 @04:14PM (#32987740)
Your comment, I understand. I still don't think GP's comment makes any sense.

> If Apple treated their bundled calculators, text editors, email software, photo viewers and PDF viewers like they treated their browser, nobody would use MacOS.

Clearly some words must be missing.

Re:Five Walled Gardens: Operating systems are holding browse... by wtetzner on Monday September 26, 2022 @02:10PM (#32986281)
It's not about bundling software with the OS, but _preventing other pieces of software from being installed_. iOS disallows alternative browser engines. When you install Chrome or Firefox on iOS, it's just a wrapper around the Safari browser engine.